This discussion throws an interesting light on the Bohr Einstein debate about the completeness of the quantum mechanical description of reality. The additional elements of reality for which Einstein hoped were intended to be counterfactually predictive. Recall Einstein s criterion of reality : if we can predict with certainty what the result of a measurement would be, then there is an element of reality underlying that prediction, even if the measurement is not actually performed.

Bruce why would these two physicists spend their time debating the above if reality has nothing to do with physics?

regards, tim

• I always thought the debate was on the .. - bruce - September 26, 2003 - 08:13 UTC
  • along that vein - sagefr0g - September 26, 2003 - 09:46 UTC
    • The EPR effect - yanniru - September 26, 2003 - 11:25 UTC
      • This is ludicrous... - bruce - September 26, 2003 - 20:39 UTC
        • I expect more respect from you - yanniru - September 29, 2003 - 04:21 UTC
        • Einstein also thought it was ludicrous - yanniru - September 29, 2003 - 13:27 UTC
          • When you say in a sense QM proved.. - bruce - September 29, 2003 - 18:35 UTC
            • College physics - yanniru - September 29, 2003 - 21:44 UTC
              • In my amateurish opinion... - aurino_ - September 30, 2003 - 14:35 UTC
                • You are correct - yanniru - September 30, 2003 - 16:45 UTC
                  • This isn't what you initially said.. - bruce - September 30, 2003 - 20:16 UTC
                    • What about... - harvey1 - September 30, 2003 - 20:54 UTC
                      • Without going through this convoluted.. - bruce - October 1, 2003 - 20:59 UTC
                        • Let me ask a question - harvey1 - October 1, 2003 - 23:53 UTC
                          • The mistake in the thought experiment.. - bruce - October 2, 2003 - 02:12 UTC
                            • Is it really a mistake? - harvey1 - October 2, 2003 - 14:24 UTC
                              • The other paper - harvey1 - October 2, 2003 - 14:26 UTC
                              • Just exactly why... - bruce - October 2, 2003 - 19:45 UTC
                                • Taking it a step further... - harvey1 - October 2, 2003 - 21:17 UTC
                                  • The light minute has everything to do with.. - bruce - October 2, 2003 - 22:30 UTC
                                    • Maybe you could clarify? - harvey1 - October 3, 2003 - 02:11 UTC
                                      • Actually... - bruce - October 3, 2003 - 04:03 UTC
                                        • How about we consider what we know at the two events... - harvey1 - October 3, 2003 - 15:18 UTC
                                          • The thought experiment... - bruce - October 3, 2003 - 20:53 UTC
                                            • Keep in mind.. - bruce - October 3, 2003 - 20:57 UTC
                                            • Isn't SR agnostic about these things? - harvey1 - October 3, 2003 - 22:11 UTC
                                              • I have to leave... - bruce - October 4, 2003 - 00:33 UTC
                    • Here is what I initially said - yanniru - October 1, 2003 - 00:16 UTC
                      • Relativity predicts that information.. - bruce - October 1, 2003 - 20:53 UTC
                        • Who cares about information - yanniru - October 1, 2003 - 23:41 UTC
                          • Whats wrong with you...? - bruce - October 2, 2003 - 02:24 UTC
                            • I am reporting you to the forum host - yanniru - October 2, 2003 - 04:10 UTC
                              • Good for you... - bruce - October 2, 2003 - 04:49 UTC
              • Undergraduate... - bruce - September 30, 2003 - 20:08 UTC
                • All physicists think EPR failed to destroy QM - yanniru - October 1, 2003 - 00:25 UTC
                  • I'm 57 years old... - bruce - October 1, 2003 - 23:22 UTC
    • Reality is a fuzzy concept - aurino_ - September 26, 2003 - 16:02 UTC
      • going by the dictionary - sagefr0g - September 26, 2003 - 20:58 UTC
        • Lets get this straight... - bruce - September 26, 2003 - 21:02 UTC
          • Absolute reality - sfnative - September 26, 2003 - 23:00 UTC
            • Thats certainly not absolute... - bruce - September 27, 2003 - 00:41 UTC
              • Cognition != events - sfnative - September 27, 2003 - 19:22 UTC
                • more... - sagefr0g - September 28, 2003 - 17:30 UTC
                  • Bohm Theory - yanniru - September 29, 2003 - 12:25 UTC
          • getting something straight would be great - sagefr0g - September 26, 2003 - 23:48 UTC
            • What do you think 'true' reality... - bruce - September 27, 2003 - 01:02 UTC
              • "true" reality - sagefr0g - September 28, 2003 - 00:54 UTC
                • True reality as you just defined it... - bruce - September 28, 2003 - 04:30 UTC
                  • Try this Bruce! - dolphin - September 28, 2003 - 10:04 UTC
                  • does our discussion... - sagefr0g - September 28, 2003 - 17:15 UTC
                    • No... - bruce - September 29, 2003 - 02:10 UTC
                      • ok - sagefr0g - September 29, 2003 - 22:28 UTC
        • You're wrong - aurino_ - September 27, 2003 - 16:14 UTC
          • oh yeah? well, you're abusive and a liar. - quiet - October 12, 2003 - 23:07 UTC
      • More ad nauseam... - bruce - September 26, 2003 - 20:58 UTC
        • When it comes to God and Science.... - quiet - October 12, 2003 - 23:07 UTC