Hi Paul,

>>>Logically, though, we make no definition of the term 'line' in the rigorous development of geometry, but instead, we use the term as a noun in statements which we take as axioms to form the basis of geometry. That is, we make statements about 'lines' without ever defining them, or needing to know what they are.>H: What is a logical fact? P: We simply do not know. Just as we don't know what a 'line' is in geometry. We certainly have some practical and vernacular ideas about what 'logical facts' are that we use every day, but Dick is admonishing us to put those ideas out of our minds for the moment and just consider 'logical facts' to be completely unknown, unconstrained data of some kind or other. He wants us to leave the concept of 'logical fact' to be completely undefined, just as a primitive concept is undefined in mathematics.>H: Facts are drawn from inferencing from axioms (aka beliefs). How can you have a logical fact without first having a belief? D: There are a couple of carts and horses here that need to be sorted out. In our normal pragmatic life, which seems to be the perspective you are coming from, Harv, we get perceptions from the world (facts in Dick's sense), our subconscious interprets sets of these and provides our conscious mind with inferences (aka beliefs), and then we declare that facts are drawn from these inferences (facts in Harv's sense).

• All thought is fiction in one important sense - spazcon - December 25, 2001 - 19:45 UTC
  • This phrase "a.t.i.f." appears in my science fiction novel - spazcon - December 25, 2001 - 19:49 UTC
  • KNOW the difference - dolphin - December 26, 2001 - 01:10 UTC
    • take it easy on me - carefuluniverse - December 26, 2001 - 02:28 UTC
• Merely a symbol of 11 letters and a space. - pmartin - December 26, 2001 - 19:45 UTC
  • a sentences in philosophy should be equations--every word strong - spazcon - December 27, 2001 - 01:14 UTC
  • Sense impressions, beliefs, formal systems, then conceptualize - harvey1 - December 27, 2001 - 03:44 UTC
    • Oops - harvey1 - December 27, 2001 - 03:50 UTC
    • Science, philosophy, or math? - pmartin - December 27, 2001 - 20:08 UTC
      • What do you mean by undefined? - harvey1 - December 27, 2001 - 23:21 UTC
        • I mean "utterly devoid of meaning" - pmartin - December 28, 2001 - 17:16 UTC
          • Then please explain about Cantor set theory website - carefuluniverse - December 28, 2001 - 18:56 UTC
            • What is it you would like explained? - pmartin - December 28, 2001 - 20:59 UTC
              • Re: your kind offer -- @ 500 words: math/sci in forming future - quiet - December 30, 2001 - 21:58 UTC
                • My opinions: - pmartin - December 31, 2001 - 04:40 UTC
                  • when telling the truth, leave elegance to Taylor - quiet - December 31, 2001 - 06:58 UTC
          • Hilbert's axioms - harvey1 - December 28, 2001 - 21:00 UTC
            • The Time Has Come to Capitulate - pmartin - December 30, 2001 - 19:51 UTC
              • Thanks, Paul - harvey1 - December 30, 2001 - 23:13 UTC
                • polite skepticism about discounting math's distinguished tools - quiet - December 30, 2001 - 23:55 UTC
                  • 'except' credentialism - quiet - December 30, 2001 - 23:57 UTC
                  • That means in regards to our understanding the world - harvey1 - December 31, 2001 - 00:53 UTC
                    • Correction - harvey1 - December 31, 2001 - 00:56 UTC
                  • That means in regards to our understanding the world - harvey1 - December 31, 2001 - 00:56 UTC
                    • bits, bytes, bards, & bouts with bullies - quiet - December 31, 2001 - 01:32 UTC
                • You're welcome, Harv - pmartin - December 31, 2001 - 04:57 UTC
      • reverie about travel at c^3 - spazcon - December 28, 2001 - 03:39 UTC
      • self reference that fine math and we're going places ! - carefuluniverse - December 28, 2001 - 19:18 UTC
• Someone is in this for the money - quiet - January 14, 2002 - 04:57 UTC