We've spent all this time debating over whether logic is the fundamental premis of the universe or the universe and the behavior of matter is more fundamental than logic. I've come to realize that there are no simple answers....cotrary to what I would have thought before we ever spoke.

Anyways here's one just to throw at you. If logic and the universe aren't independant of eachother....then it follows that the only other option would be for one to be dependant upon the other.....correct? So which is more fundamental the universe and matter or logic? That's what we've been debating over this whole time....but...

If a > b and b > c...then a has to be > c. Could you explain to me how this could have anything to do with the behavior of matter in the universe? This was mentaly derived and is an abstract axiom; it was in no way based on our physical universe. Now let's create a few more axioms from pure logic...and from those let's construct a formal system of logically proving what those axioms would imply. Let's call these "proofs", theorems and lets call this formal system, "mathematics". So it stands that the whole of mathematics is completely derived from abstract, esoteric axioms. It is obvious that a "point" and a "line segment" are meantal abstractions, rather than physical entities. Have you ever laid your eyes upon an existing "point"? I should believe not. So I still believe that mathematics exists independant of any perceptions of physical objects......and is therefore not relyant upon matter.

And yet it still stands that matter behaves in a mathematical fashion......be it a coincidental approxamation.......or not. So the axioms are not based on the matter with which we perceive (and as you say base our system of logic upon). So I ask you to explain this one......

My standing belief is that one of two is true.....
Math/logic and universe/matter are independant of eachother (co-existing independantly); or the universe was derived from the more fundamental of the two.......mathematics.
In the second case.....our universe is but one mathematical possibility amongst a multitude.

Of the third choice......"math/logic is derived from matter".......I don't find this feesible. Therefore I don't believe our axioms are based upon the universe in which we reside.

• Let's not forget about Goedel! - yanniru - September 2, 2001 - 12:29 UTC
  • Goedel - petersand - September 2, 2001 - 22:00 UTC
    • I know language better than math - yanniru - September 3, 2001 - 12:25 UTC
      • I know language.... - petersand - September 5, 2001 - 17:59 UTC
        • Thank you - yanniru - September 5, 2001 - 20:06 UTC
          • Thankyou - petersand - September 5, 2001 - 21:21 UTC
  • Ahh yes.... - smartguy - September 3, 2001 - 03:39 UTC
    • Chaitin - yanniru - September 3, 2001 - 12:16 UTC
      • Chaitin - petersand - September 3, 2001 - 21:39 UTC
        • Peter...... - smartguy - September 4, 2001 - 04:21 UTC
          • Oh yes, one more thing.... - smartguy - September 4, 2001 - 04:56 UTC
            • The collapsing universe of a black hole - yanniru - September 4, 2001 - 12:39 UTC
              • Of course not..... - smartguy - September 4, 2001 - 18:47 UTC
                • Onlyin a 2-D universe - yanniru - September 4, 2001 - 19:45 UTC
                  • ThiWell then you would know that.... - smartguy - September 4, 2001 - 20:37 UTC
                    • 4 dimensions! - telescopeboy - September 5, 2001 - 17:06 UTC
                      • I think it's actually 26 dimensions - yanniru - September 5, 2001 - 20:13 UTC
                        • WOW......is that so?...... - smartguy - September 5, 2001 - 21:04 UTC
                          • General Relativity - yanniru - September 6, 2001 - 12:12 UTC
                        • the dimensions - cheezsandwich - November 18, 2002 - 07:51 UTC
          • Peter - petersand - September 5, 2001 - 18:45 UTC
            • Ok I see what you mean..... - smartguy - September 5, 2001 - 22:01 UTC
              • Mark, questioning is not enough, you should give alternative. - alexander - September 6, 2001 - 00:15 UTC
                • Questioning is not enough - petersand - September 6, 2001 - 18:12 UTC
                  • WOW...Great post... - smartguy - September 6, 2001 - 20:42 UTC
                    • Wow - petersand - September 6, 2001 - 22:00 UTC
                    • WOW - petersand - September 6, 2001 - 23:22 UTC
                      • Falling into black hole. - alexander - September 7, 2001 - 00:00 UTC
                        • Falling into black hole - petersand - September 7, 2001 - 19:48 UTC
                        • Right on Alex... - bruce - September 7, 2001 - 20:53 UTC
                          • correction - bruce - September 7, 2001 - 20:56 UTC
• More on ontology - harvey1 - September 10, 2001 - 05:05 UTC