You made the exact point that I would loved to have made to Alex, had I been able to come up with such a great argument as you just did.

I love the car analogy. You certainly have a knack for presenting well thought ideas in a very clearly worded and understandable fashion.

I too believe (somewhat) that the universe could very well be 99.999999...% automated by the laws of physics, and that there could be however, some undetectable mechanism that provides God with a logical way to "handle the brakes and steering".

Perhaps this mechanism is in fact manifest in consciousness as you said...

If we truly have "free-will", then consider that perhaps, in a way, the "choices" we make are not always "scientifically predictable". In other words... where one can easily mathematically produce the trajectory of a cannon ball (via laws of motion/gravity), one cannot so easily (if at all even) produce the path that a human will walk in an open field over the course of five minutes (or even lesser) time...

Once again...
If consciousness is in a way "beyond science"... then so too would be the immediate/far-removed consequences that "consciousness" could create. Therefore there are indeed physical objects that cannot be rigorously explained nor understood within the framework of physics. Such is the mechanism for "the hand of God".

• Thanks, Mark, but... - pmartin - November 20, 2001 - 06:17 UTC
  • Universe driven by freedom and agreements - dolphin - November 20, 2001 - 08:06 UTC
    • Among whom? - pmartin - November 20, 2001 - 15:52 UTC
      • Brain check! - pmartin - November 20, 2001 - 15:58 UTC
        • Warm results to you too Paul (ha ha) (nt) - harvey1 - November 20, 2001 - 16:15 UTC
    • So, everyone beleves that God is just around the corner - alexander - November 20, 2001 - 16:24 UTC
      • Alex... if you haven't noticed... - smartguy - November 20, 2001 - 16:53 UTC
        • Ok. Anything about the subject then (=god of neurophysics)? - alexander - November 20, 2001 - 17:19 UTC
      • Loop - harvey1 - November 20, 2001 - 16:56 UTC
        • Harwey, those are loops of your closeminding. - alexander - November 20, 2001 - 17:27 UTC
          • Very anthropomorphic of you - harvey1 - November 20, 2001 - 17:47 UTC
            • Harvey, what are axioms of logic then? - alexander - November 20, 2001 - 19:19 UTC
              • Which one? - harvey1 - November 20, 2001 - 21:13 UTC
                • Perhaps... - smartguy - November 21, 2001 - 04:31 UTC
                  • Here's the deal - harvey1 - November 21, 2001 - 15:18 UTC
                    • For some reason... - smartguy - November 21, 2001 - 17:47 UTC
                      • Some observations and comments - pmartin - November 21, 2001 - 18:49 UTC
                        • Right back at ya... - smartguy - November 22, 2001 - 03:25 UTC
                          • Super Consciousness - pmartin - November 22, 2001 - 05:11 UTC
                • Harvey, there is only one logic. - alexander - November 22, 2001 - 23:50 UTC
                  • hope - jisbond - November 23, 2001 - 01:29 UTC
                  • You don't know the field of logic - harvey1 - November 23, 2001 - 15:02 UTC
                    • Harvey, why don't you stich to philosophy? - alexander - November 23, 2001 - 22:57 UTC
                      • A stich in time saves nine - harvey1 - November 24, 2001 - 00:37 UTC
      • I don't think everyone believes God is just around the corner - pmartin - November 20, 2001 - 18:34 UTC
        • This may be one scenario. There may be turtles all the way down. - alexander - November 20, 2001 - 19:45 UTC
          • Where you err - harvey1 - November 20, 2001 - 21:47 UTC
            • Harwey, you produced many words with no meaning - alexander - November 22, 2001 - 23:58 UTC
              • Sure - harvey1 - November 23, 2001 - 15:47 UTC
                • Actually vice versa. Path integral can be derived from - alexander - November 23, 2001 - 23:19 UTC
                  • But, which is more fundamental? - harvey1 - November 24, 2001 - 00:29 UTC
          • Causation vs. Uncertainty - luis_hamburgh - November 21, 2001 - 00:39 UTC
            • There is no contradiction here. - alexander - November 23, 2001 - 23:29 UTC
              • "No contradiction here!" is dogmatic (read, religious) response. - luis_hamburgh - November 24, 2001 - 04:55 UTC
          • "Fuzzy insertion of a God-like object" (as you requested) - carefuluniverse - November 21, 2001 - 20:46 UTC
            • Why not to learn neirobiology then? - alexander - November 23, 2001 - 23:52 UTC
              • By recently, I meant since creatures gained ability to "think" - carefuluniverse - November 24, 2001 - 01:50 UTC
              • By recently, I meant since creatures gained ability to "think" - carefuluniverse - November 24, 2001 - 01:52 UTC
      • Another response for Alex - pmartin - November 20, 2001 - 19:31 UTC
        • To be continued... - alexander - November 20, 2001 - 20:21 UTC
        • Wrote big respond but accidentally lost it. - alexander - November 20, 2001 - 21:01 UTC
          • I just did the same thing, almost. - pmartin - November 21, 2001 - 00:25 UTC
            • Paul, it is all in textbooks. I can't copy all of them. - alexander - November 24, 2001 - 00:06 UTC
              • Okay. Thanks. - pmartin - November 24, 2001 - 01:17 UTC