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Here Is The Scripture

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Posted by Richard Ruquist on October 27, 2003 14:56:27 UTC

I cannot reakon it with "woman's water breaking.

What he says below is that you must be born BOTH of the water and the spirit. That of course contradicts your clain that water baptism is not necessary. But let's read the whole chapter again:

John.3
[1]
Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicode'mus, a ruler of the Jews.


[2] This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him."
[3] Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
[4] Nicode'mus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
[5] Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[7] Do not marvel that I said to you, `You must be born anew.'
[8] The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the Spirit."
[9] Nicode'mus said to him, "How can this be?"
[10] Jesus answered him, "Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand this?
[11] Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen; but you do not receive our testimony.
[12] If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
[13] No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.
[14] And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up,
[15] that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."


Now it seems quite clear that Jesus is talking of birth via baptism, either of water or of the spirit.

Yet 3:5-6 could have a double meaning. It could have a cosmic meaning in that there is two great concurrent evolutions going on, the evolution of physical beings and the evolution of spiritual beings. I thank God and Eric for that insight.

In this context 3:13 is very interesting. Is Jesus saying that he is the only one to have descended from heaven. Yet from Matthew we learn that Jesus was fathered by the Holy Spirit in Mary's womb.

Perhaps we are in error in thinking that only the son of Man has descended from heaven.

In order to make both scriptues consistent, it must be that the product of the union of Mary and the Holy Spirit was flesh and then later in the pregnancy the Spirit of Jesus descended from heaven into the fetus.

That is exactly how reincarnation works. Now admittedly Jesus does not say it has to happen multiple times, but what he does say is not inconsistent with reincarnation, at least in his case.

Thank you for your kind words in the other post. I did warn you that I would be a thorn in your side.

Love,

Richard

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