: : : There is God and there is Satan (two mighty creatures).

: ***If this is so, where are they? In your head!

: God said the humankind is not a failure and Satan can not encourage them for evil. Satan said: “Of course, I can do!” and then he began his evil work. That’s the story, isn’t it? Satan tries to corrupt the humans and God puts faith in his creation.

: ***We encourage ourselves by using supernatural excuses for our thinking and actions.

: : : God must do nothing, he knows that the humans will not fall. There is no reason to give advices or rules - his creation is a triumph!

: ***Fall from what? Life is full of natural rules. : Triumph over what? Evil? How could there be such a thing if all things were created by god?

: But Satan must become active, he wants to prove that the humans are bad.

: ***Bad according to god or satan? Active? All I see are human actions, are they not responsible?

: : : Hmmmm...so what would Satan do? Would he say to the humans something like: “You must be bad!”, “Kill other humans!”, “Make war!”, “Be greedy!”???

: ***He would sit back and let us destroy ourselves the same way god does.

: No, certainly not! The humans would see that this is not good for them and they would revolt.

: ***Assuming we had something tangable to revolt against, or if we believed in it?

: Yeah, Satan would not be so stupid, he would do something more clever! Not? : : : Hmmmmmm...what would a Satan do to corrupt the humankind? Surely he would use a trick...he would confuse them and lead them astray. I bet, he would have written the Bible if he could! That is the best was to cause bad!

: ***So it is the bible that gets the blame and not ourselves for misusing it? Its just a book!

: : : Could it be that Satan is so clever? Could it be that Satan has written the Bible? When he did that then he did a very good job, didn’t he?

: ***From a mans point of view, I find that gender steriotyping offensive, have you verified "his" physical characteristics? Boobs have been known to save and/or destroy entire nations! They are a reminder of things a little lower from eye level.

: The Bible has changed the world but never in a good way.

: ***The bible opened the way to science, has given people hope, and compassion, giving of themselves.

: The Bible is the reason for discriminations, perversions, inquisition, intolerance, crusades, etc. etc. etc. (has the Bible ever caused something good?)

: ***The bible and the many other religious texts in this world eventually gave us something to question, there never would have been athiesm without them. I don't know what there would have been, but it could have been worse! Here we sit, talking freely about the existance of such things, it took a long time and many have (and will) suffer, but it is a necissary adaptation in our progression. Alternatives to religion are here to stay, and we have only begun to explore.

: : : A good God wouldn’t have written such an important book that nobody really understands and that causes so much sorrow.

: ***No one really understands Shakespeare...

: A supernatural intelligence must know what will happen...

: ***"Supernatural" might be an alien intellignce that to us would seen almighty, but would have its limitations as all things do.

: and Satan knew it! He wrote the Bible and the humans stopped to think - they began to believe. They did terrible things in the name of the good! They stopped to look at the real world around - they began to worship a material, “crazy” book and tried to see God in it... : : : Could it be that Beelzebub is an angle? : : : Could it be that the Bible is Devils work?

: ***Hey Bezz, throw it right back at me will ya? : I just want to argue and I've seen you are good at it. :)

: : : bzrd here: Satan is not omnipresent. Lucifer, "the son of the morning" is a beautiful spiritual being created by God. He is the ultimate example of the cliche' "beauty is only skin deep", he is the master of deception; he would like nothing better than for you to beleive that he is doesn't exist.

: ***By hiding as god does? Working through us?

: He does, and will, use the Bible and religion as tools of deception; he will quite literally, use anything. God granted him domain over the earth and it's inhabitants so we are subject to his deceit while we are here.

: ***Why did god not place us elsewhere, make another planet for us, inconvienience?

: He uses man's intellect [which is just powerful enough to be dangerous} to fool himself into thinking such things as evolution and social revelence are a reality, when in fact, if you look beneath the surface, you will find just the opposite to be true. For ex. if social relativity is correct, who decides what is right and wrong?

: ***Man has always made his own rules, this includes what is right and wrong. Laws are this expression from the dominant majority, are based in cultural perceptions and written in religious texts and state laws. The powerful decide, do you think you can sleep with your intern and get away with it? Even in the face of the nation, in the most sacred place of government? There ya go.

: Man. Which man? Which ever man is powerful enough to exert his will over his fellow human beings.

: ***Opps, I just restated what you said and I agree, sorry! :)

: Inevitably, this will lead to dictatorship as the only other alternative is anarchy.

: ***What about computer controlled pure communism combined with a return to agricultural lifestyles and the ownership of property with a controlled level population? At least until we make it in colonies in space, then adapt to fit those needs. : Or other not so radical ideas such as Humanism.

: Hitler decided it was morally acceptable to exterminate the Jews. On what basis? His own.

: ***The Pope decided it was morally acceptable to exterminate and whospoke against him. On the basis of the religion you are defending. : Our country decided it was morally acceptable to exterminate the people we found occupying the land upon which we now live, they are still repressed because of thier differences in ...

: On what moral basis does a woman have an abortion?

: ***The same one god used when he destroyed all humanity with a flood, including the unborn.

: Her own. When does when a fetus becomes a human being? Only when it is "convenient".

: ***When does a human being call on god? Only when convienient, for some this convienience is steady. : We are all convienient when the draft comes around, especially when it is not for real reasons of national security...

: You think Satan is a myth? Look around you.

: ***I think both god and satan are nothing more than myths, I have looked around quite a bit.

: ***One last thing, even as an athiest I celebrate christmas, or "the time for reflecting upon our blessings, sharing with others, renewing our compassion deliberately, casting away grudges and hate and all the childish things we have not had time to stop and think about and get rid of, in an attempt to foster a sense of hope and joy in a world that is otherwise selfish, uncompassionate, : and basically hard to survive in using honesty."

: ***Hi Bzrd, I am intersted in discussion, not internet warfare, I know you understand this concept of enabling our minds toward objectivity. : Merry Christmas ya'll! :) :Earl here :-) Several things I'd like to mention that came to mind while I was readin' your material, Jesus said unless those (these) days be shortened there shall be no flesh saved, and said because wickedness shall abound that the Love of many will wax (get) cold, and "When I come back will I find faith on the earth?", and that power was given to the anti-Christ to make war with the saints, ...it's gonna get kinda bad ...you'll see its gettin' rougher and rougher, but the main thing is Jesus told us not to worry about it because He had already overcome the world....that these things must come to pass in the end to fulfil the scripture....and bring about the new earth that contains no sin...and do away with evil altogether once again like it was before old lucifer came on the scene in this sector of the universe....the other thing was that when men will say peace and safety, then sudden destruction will come on the earth and a time of pestilence and holocaust like that has never been in time past or will ever be again....a third of the earths oceans will be poisoned, a third of the earth will die out...the sun will get seven times hotter....the moon will turn to blood..stars falling from heaven....sun turning black as soot....terror upon terror for 3.5 years of final judgement poured out on the earth...fire, smoke, hail, blood, and plagues, famine, and death.....like when they shut the door on the ark and it broke loose ...it'll break loose again...only in a different way...I'm hoping to get out of here by rapture when Christ comes the first time..before that all happens...(The Great Tribulation)...All people have to do is accept Him as Lord...He'll do the rest...hey, it don't matter then about all philosophies and theories ...that won't get you to heaven....I'll learn all that when I get there and sit down with Jesus and listen to Him tell me how it is. We know in part now...but then face to face, we'll know it all then. We'll be like angels. Dissappear here and reappear there, travel at incredible speeds thru the universe, not be affected by elements, or energy. We'll have bodies like Christ has now, then. And, on top of that we'll rule and reign with Him on the earth for a 1000 years before the new earth is made....Merry Christmas all! Unto us a Son is given...Immanual (God with us)

• I really wish there was truth behind an almighty - Phil.o.Sofir - December 29, 1999 - 01:12 UTC