Back to Home

Blackholes Forum Message

Forums: Atm · Astrophotography · Blackholes · Blackholes2 · CCD · Celestron · Domes · Education
Eyepieces · Meade · Misc. · God and Science · SETI · Software · UFO · XEphem
RSS Button

Home | Discussion Forums | Blackholes I | Post

Be the first pioneers to continue the Astronomy Discussions at our new Astronomy meeting place...
The Space and Astronomy Agora
If You Quit Speeking To Me After This, I'll Understand

Forum List | Follow Ups | Post Message | Back to Thread Topics | In Response To
Posted by Duane Eddy on November 17, 2002 01:01:42 UTC

First in answer to you comments...

Einstein's theory is not all there is to science.


You say something about a quasar being one big star. Don't forget that there are other properties of a quasar to take into account, including its spectrum, its variability, its absorption properties, and the periodic jets that we see emanating from them.

(My intent was to point out the fact that a galaxy changes with time and it should not be expected that reflected images would all be identical to what we are today.)

For the galaxies, they also have totally different properties, much more complex than you would expect from reflected images. For example, some of them are elliptical in shape, some are disk-like, some are spherical, and some are literally broken in two. We also see galaxies colliding (and can model it with simple Newtonian gravity). In addition, they have complicated spectra that include emission and absorption lines, neither of which can be explained by reflected images. It's easy to tell when something is being multiply imaged because the spectra are basically identical. A redshift will not change the spectrum shape.

(I would not expect multiple images of the same view. They would also be from different times which would affect the physical make-up of the mass as the galaxy progressed from a quasar to the galaxy we live in at the present time.)

Finally, if the universe were curved at a distance of the galaxy, we could measure it. In fact, they might have been able to measure it a 100 years ago.

(I didn’t mean to imply the universe is closed at the edge of the galaxy just that there is only one. The light images travel an orbit equal to the distance to the nearest galaxy.
That gives us some room.)

The problem with making these kind of hypotheses is that you don't have nearly enough experience to refute them. I'm not at all against thinking, but it's easy to get caught in a mind set if nobody is around to tell you otherwise.

( That’s why I need you. )

After several attempts to put equations on my word processor I gave up.
I hope this is descriptive enough for you to follow it.

I assume this nt is a word processor which will type math equations. If so where can I get a copy.
As you must realize by now I did not anticipate I would be presenting this as a theory when I entered this conversation, but having to put this outline together has made me deal with a lot of gray areas in my thinking.
I have listed the predictions at the bottom of this discussion if it gets to long.


The galaxy is a highly dense object..
An explosion occurs releasing radiation.
At first the radiation is spectrum shifted into the microwave range due to the galaxy’s intense gravitational field.
Shortly afterward expansion reduces the mass density to the point that the spectrum shifts allow energy to be emitted in visible light wavelengths.

-First orbit

I will refer to this first light image as a quasar.
Multiple quasar images complete one orbit path and appear as an images in space around the newly forming galaxy.
The quasar images are not just visual images but a movie which carries all wave forms including gravity.

The first orbit image will replay events from the first explosion to the return of the first orbit image.


I will refer to the sum total of all images as the “apparent universe”.
I will define a zero rotation and motion coordinate system to be equal to the perceived average rotation and motion of all images in the apparent universe.
I will define zero time as the beginning of the galaxy.
I will define one orbit time as the time required for one image orbit to occur.
I will define one orbit length as the distance the image path will travel in one orbit.


This model predicts the a quasar is an image of the birth of the galaxy which is also the birth of the universe.
The image will have the affect of being a actual object on our galaxy.
Our galaxy will experience a gravitational pull as well as any other affect which would occur as if the object were actually located one orbit distance away, along a straight path parallel to end of the image reentry path. ( That is - where the image appears to be assuming space is not curved. )
The galaxy mass which is forming has a rotational velocity as defined by the zero coordinate system.
The angular velocity of the galaxy mass will have an associated angular momentum.

-Second orbit

I will define a second orbit image as an orbit image which has captured a previous first orbit image.

When the second image completes its orbit two images will be visible.
The first orbit quasar image has now aged and appears to be one orbit time old and remains at an apparent distance of one orbit distance.
A new quasar images also appears with an apparent distance of two orbit lengths distance and an apparent age of zero.

-Third orbit and higher orbits.

Each orbit will add an additional shell of images which appear to be one orbit distance further away from the galaxy mass center then the previous image shell.

As this process continues a pattern develops as a string of images appear to be one orbit length further then another.
This string is composed of views from a common orbit path.
The orbit path may change however the path change will be limited to the change amount which can occur in one orbit time.
This will cause changes in view and reentry location to be similar between two consecutive images in a string.

Deviations in the image orbit path will cause each image in the image string to be offset slightly. Offset distance should appear to be similar in magnitude from one image to the next.
If the offset distance lengthens shortens or rotates then these properties should continue on with consecutive images with only slight modifications.

-The formation of a string branch.

Two or more quasar images are captured by an image which is leaving the galaxy mass to complete an orbit.
When the image returns two or more quasars will appear equal to the number captured on departure.
This will cause a multiplication in the number of quasar images each time a shell of images are added.
Each quasar will start a string of images..
The number of string branches will be equal to the number of quasar images captured.

The quasar images captured will have slightly different paths.
Differing path directions will cause a difference in path length for each quasar image. If a difference in path length occurs the quasars will not appear at the same time.


This model predicts that if a quasar appears then there is a higher probability that another quasar will appear or has appeared close to it recently.

Galaxy image locations will not be random but will appear to fallow a path with quantum distances between them.

Images in a string will have similar properties as if the images were taken from a continuous movie at equal time durations.


-Constant galaxy rotation

The galaxy mass is rotating.
Space exposed to the galaxy’s rotating gravitational field will be distorted.
Space distortion will cause image paths to rotate farther around the galaxy in the direction of the galaxy rotation before returning to the galaxy mass center.
As long as the galaxy is rotating at a constant velocity the orbit path will remain a constant length with each orbit being rotated or stretched to the same length.

-Accelerating galaxy rotation

If the galaxy mass rotation is accelerating then the distortion of space will be increasing.
As space distortion is increasing the image path will be increasing causing the orbit path to be stretching.
A stretching orbit path will cause the image to appear to be moving away from us.
All wave properties exhibited by an object moving away form us will be imposed on the image.
A red spectrum shift will appear.

-Decelerating galaxy rotation

If the galaxy mass rotation is decelerating then the distortion of space will be decrease.
As space distortion is decreasing the images path will be reducing in length.
A shorting orbit path will cause the image to appear to be moving toward us.
All wave properties exhibited by an object moving toward us will be imposed on the image.
A blue spectrum shift will appear.

-Orbit direction

In the above discussion the orbit path was assumed to be orbiting in the direction of the galaxy mass rotation.
If the image orbit travels counter to the galaxy rotation then the spectrum shifts would be reversed red for blue and blue for red.


Galaxies will appear to be moving away from us and earlier in there development as the apparent distance increases, causing the appearance that at we are at the center of the universe.


-Deceleration and expansion.

The galaxy mass angular momentum will remain constant.
The galaxy will initially have a large angular velocity due to its compact size.
As expansion occurs and the diameter of the galaxy increases, the angular velocity will be decreasing to maintain a constant angular momentum..
The angular velocity will continue to decrease until the galaxy mass reaches its maximum radius.
During this expansion all images will have a blue shift and images will appear to be moving closer due to shorting of the image orbit path.
An image which returns to the galaxy would be included in the next image orbit compounding the blue shift effect.

The galaxy mass then will reached its maximum radius and began to spiral back into its center.

-Acceleration and contraction.

During collapse the galaxy angular rotation will increase causing a red shift.
Each image orbit would then cause an additional red spectrum shift.
The total spectrum shift would be a summation of all the accumulated blue and red shifts during an images history.


The quasar image which has the longest total orbit distance and is the oldest image which can be seen will not have the greatest red spectrum shift, but will have a spectrum shift equal to the total of all blue and red shifts it has experienced.

Images which started during the apex of the galaxy mass expansion will have the maximum red shift as they have experienced all of the red shifted orbits but have not experience the blue shift orbits during the galaxy mass expansion.

The closest image which is the first orbit image will have a spectrum shift which is due to the acceleration averaged over the most recent orbit time.
The close images can be used to determine the current angular acceleration of the galaxy during the last orbit.


-We might expect the edge view of a spiral galaxy to be flat with a bulge at the center.

If the image reenters the galaxy at the face of the galaxy the galaxy image will be rotate due to the rotating galaxy mass gravitational field as previously discussed.
The photons at the center of the image will travel straighter while the photons which form the tips of the image will follow a spiral path.

-Image rotation distortion

If the rotation of the galaxy is accelerating then the amount of rotation of the image will be increasing and the image will appear to rotate.

This rotation should be expected to be less then the rotational velocity of the galaxy mass and may not be detectable in the scale of time mankind will be observing it.

-Radial time distortion

The photons which are the tips of the image must travel farther if they are to follow a spiral path.
The image of the tips of the edge view must be from an older image because they have been traveling longer.

The image will be progressively older as one moves radially outward from the center of the image.

As you inspect the galaxy image from the center to the tip the image will be progressively older. The older image was from a previous rotation. ( See image rotation distortion above.)
This will cause the image to distorted by rotation as you progress from the center to the tip.
(The linear image to be twisted into an “S” shape.)
The older the image the farther away it will appear.
This will make the image shrink in size as you progress from the center to the tip.
(The image tips of the “S” shape will curl in toward the image center.)

The galaxy from which the images was taken was not twisted, aged or shrunk and some of the original traits will still be evident in the image which will make this distortion prediction easily proven.

-Distortion verification

The original image was an edge view of a spiral galaxy.

In an edge view of a spiral galaxy one tip has a redder spectral shift then the other tip because one tip is moving away from us and the other tip is moving toward us.

There is typically a thin line of dust at the galaxy’s edge due to the effects of the rotation of the galaxy.

If a “s” shaped galaxy is a twisted edge view of a spiral galaxy it will still have the thin dust line
in the image which will be twisted with the remainder of the image.

The image tips can be identified by following the dust line out from the center of the image.

One tip will have a different spectral shift then the other tip which will indicate that the image is really a edge view of a rotating spiral galaxy.
If the current rotation of the galaxy is accelerating then both tips of the image will have a larger red shift then the center due to increasing path length of the image tips.

If common flat space assumptions are used to interpret these red shifts it will appear that the image is a galaxy with two spiral arms which are being accelerated away from us and the image core with one arm being accelerated away then the other.
This will be a common phenomenon which will seem to indicate that we are at the center of this expansion.


Depending on the image departure location, the image reentry location and the angular acceleration at the time of the image orbit a twisting and shrinking of the image may occur.

A spiral image would be wound up or unwound depending on the departure and reentry criteria.
A picture of our galaxy which is “unwound” could appear spherical without a spiral structure.
A galaxy image which was wound up sufficiently also would have a spherical shape but would have a very tightly wound structure.

The galaxy should be expected to progress from a quasar to a spiral galaxy as time passes.
These changes should not be attributed to distortion.

Unknown distortions may occur where an image is only partially captured.


The images have been traveling at the speed of light from the beginning of the universe until the present time.
If the images are considered to be actual galaxies that have accelerated to velocities close to the speed of light very large amounts must be involved. The energy required to cause these conditions make it impossible to maintaining identical conditions across the expanse of space to allow similar objects to form.

If the images are actually mass which as accelerated to velocities close to the speed of light there average velocity must still be less then half of the speed of light. The time required for the galaxies to reach there present distance will have taken twice as long. If the age of the galaxy can be determined by independent criteria then this model may be proven true or false.

Images which are first orbit may be close enough in age to identify a property which is identical to our present galaxy when age differences are accounted for.
For an example if an image and our galaxy have a position that is identifiable a unique cluster of stars may be identified as having aged correctly for the time difference expected.

It should be noted here that the flat space mass density calculations and mass velocities calculated from red shift data and mass quantities calculate from the assumption that the images are independent objects can not be used when considering this model.


An orbit image is not the circumference of the universe because other images may travel other paths which occupy different space. The orbit will however reach the maximum distance form the galaxy mass. This distance will be less then half of one orbit distance and may be found to be proven to be less if the exact path can be defined.

The universe is much larger then the galaxy mass.

This model predicts..

1. The back ground radiation is an indication of the birth of the galaxy.
2. There is only one galaxy in the universe.
3. All quasars are different views of one object.
4. Reflected images will carry all energy wave lengths and will exhibit all properties which can be conveyed by these waves.
5. The orbit image canopy defines all velocity and acceleration for our galaxy.
6. Images appear to be located at quantum distances from us.
7. Galaxies do not appear in random locations but sequential ages are located along a string.
8. Strings of galaxies can branch into two or more strings.
9. Quasars images appear close together in time and location and do not occur randomly.
10. Galaxy rotation acceleration will cause a red shift in image spectrums.
11. Galaxy rotation deceleration will cause a blue shift in image spectrums.
12. Spectrum shifts caused by an orbit are additive if an image experience multiple orbits.
13. The quasar will have the longest travel time and appear to be the oldest object but will not have the greatest red shift.
14. Images initiated at the maximum expansion of the galaxy will have the greatest red shift.
15. The closest image will have a spectrum shift indicating the galaxy acceleration during the last orbit time.
16. Image distortion is dependent on where the image entered and left the galaxy mass.
17. A rotation acceleration or deceleration will cause the image to rotate.
18. An images which enter or leave the galaxy mass at a face will be twisted if the galaxy mass is accelerating or decelerating.
19. Images which entered or left the galaxy mass while the galaxy is rotating will be time delayed as you progress from the center to the edges.
20. Images which have entered or left the galaxy mass while the galaxy is rotating will appear smaller and farther away as you progress from the center to the edges.
21. Images which have entered or left the galaxy mass while the galaxy is rotating will experience a red spectrum shift which increases as you progress from the center to the edges.
22. An image could first be wound up and then unwound counteracting the twisting effect however the shrinking and aging effect would be accumulative.
23. Images which leave ( image is an edge view ) and reenter at the rim of the galaxy ( direction of our observation ) should have no spiral distortion if the image is a first orbit image.
24. Galaxies which are close to us have a better chance of avoiding distortion because they have fewer orbits. This should be evident as galaxy structure is compared to distance.
25. The apparent quantum distance ( orbit distance ) between galaxies will reduce or increase slightly corresponding to the spectrum shift between galaxy images. Orbit lengths are not exactly identical in length and will increase with a increasing red shift and decrease with a decreasing red shift as you progress from closer to farther images.
26. If a galaxy image close to us is not distorted so that the image can be inspected closely specific objects or groups of objects may be identified to be objects in our own galaxy as they appeared one orbit time ago.
27. Galaxies will appear to have impossible structures due to image distortions.
28. Galaxy collisions are impossible in this model and must be explained by distorted views of one or more images.
29. Unknown distortions may occur where an image is only partially captured.
30. The galaxy should be expected to progress from a quasar to a spiral galaxy as time passes. These changes should not be attributed to distortion.
31. This model predicts the age of the universe will be less then half of the age required for a flat space universe.
32. This model does not require the quantity of energy to accelerate the majority of the mass in the galaxy to velocities close to the speed of light.
33. The flat space mass density calculations used to determine if a flat space model is close can not be used on this model because the assumptions used in the flat space model are inconsistent with the structure of the curved space model.
34. The universe diameter must be equal to or less then one orbit length.

Follow Ups:

Login to Post
Additional Information
About Astronomy Net | Advertise on Astronomy Net | Contact & Comments | Privacy Policy
Unless otherwise specified, web site content Copyright 1994-2022 John Huggins All Rights Reserved
Forum posts are Copyright their authors as specified in the heading above the post.
"dbHTML," "AstroGuide," "ASTRONOMY.NET" & "VA.NET"
are trademarks of John Huggins