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 Be the first pioneers to continue the Astronomy Discussions at our new Astronomy meeting place...The Space and Astronomy Agora Where To Buy? You Have To Wait - Scientists Work On It. Forum List | Follow Ups | Post Message | Back to Thread Topics | In Response ToPosted by Alexander on July 18, 2001 18:57:21 UTC

My understanding is that all your questions and concerns are reducible to one fundamental question: is there a non-mathematical (but may be physical?) entity which DICTATES certain math rules which in tern, dictate all phenomena in visible universe (by the way, what are those "special" fundamental math rules in our universe which might be different in different universe? There are non - all universes obey SAME basic math), or does this non-mathematical entity NOT have to exist (in order to create universes)?

If to assume the existence of that non-mathematical entity, from which all we see originated - we in deep metaphysical trouble. On one side, we have mathematical universe with all in it ruled by math and with all objects and laws in it being mathematical objects and mathematical laws.

On the other - it is suddenly became NOT self-consistent, because on some level it does NOT mathematically follow from some another mathematical object, but instead somehow appears "out of blue" and without any cause-effect relationship to that "blue" object at all (because any cause-effect RELATIONSHIP is mathematical by definition).

So, it seems that there are MATHEMATICAL objects and phenomena on any level, and "all the way down" as it always was before (may be, even without some prime "original" object at all - just a never ending chain of more and more fundamental mathematical phenomena).

Also, how can BASIC mathematical concepts like 1=yes object, 0=no object "originate" or "be created" (say, from some higher "divine order")? Do they indeed need a "divine creator"? Or, say, does the concept of symmetry {=invariance (unchange) under transformation (say, under shifts in space or in time)} require some "inventor"?