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I recently had a discussion with a fundamentalist Christian, I think I'll post the gist of it here for the hell of it. I absolutely swear that this dialogue actually happened. It's quite [extremely] disjointed and brushes quickly over virtually every subject, but by the end of the argument I was so frustrated I felt the need to vent. Anyone out there, please tell me if you can see an ounce of logic in his argument.
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Fundamentalist: I don't believe in evolution.
Me: Why on earth not?
Him: DNA doesn't change fast enough. Any changes in the DNA is just micro-evolution.
Me: So? Put millenia of micro-evolution together and eventually you get a new species. It's simple. If you admit DNA changes, eventually it will change enough that you have a new species.
Him: It would take too long to happen to the extent that it did. It would have had to have happened in under 10,000 years.
Me: And you believe the earth to be 10,000 years old?
Him: Of course. It says so in the Bible.
Me: The earth is not 10,000 years old. It's about 4.6 billion years old. Carbon dating has proven this.
Him: Carbon dating is inaccurate. I know someone who sent archeological samples in to be dated, and was forced to include an estimated date with each sample. He got his exact estimated date back every time. Sound a little suspicious?
Me: I would personally blame that on incompetence. I will admit that carbon dating isn't 100% accurate, but it is accurate enough. The decay of carbon can be predicted quite accurately, it's just contamination which ruins it. The contamination would not be to the degree that we would mistake 4600000000 years for 10000. That is insane.
Him: Are you denying what the Bible says? You'll go to Hell!
Me: Are you saying it doesn't matter what I do in life, all that matters is that I believe in God?
Him: Yes! Other religions are based on good deeds, Christianity is about faith. All you need is a relationship with God.
Me: I see. It doesn't matter how good you are, just who you believe is God, huh?
Him: Exactly.
Me: Okay, so let's say there's an incredibly moral Muslim man who gives all he owns to the poor, developes a cheap new medicine to combat malaria which saves thousands of lives, and donates regularly to his church. He's going to burn forever?
Him: Yes! He doesn't have a relationship with God. He was born into sin, and without a relationship with God that sin is not forgiven.
Me: He DOES have a relationship with God! Allah, HIS God!
Him: What seperates Christianity from Islam is that Christianity is right.
Me: How can you say that? The only reason you believe in Jesus is because you were raised to. Your belief is based on chance. If you were raised a Muslim, you're saying you would burn no matter what because you weren't Christian?
Him: Yes, because I wouldn't have a relationship with God. You make a choice when you come into this world. If you choose wrong, God punishes you.
Me: Okay, let's say there's a native on New Guinea. He believes in his native religion. He is a good man. He has never been exposed to the ideas of Christianity. He has never heard of Jesus. God will throw him in Hell forever just because of that luck?
Him: Yes! He wouldn't have had a relationship with God.
Me: But that's just based on chance!
Him: No, it's based on a choice to turn away from God.
Me (with clenched jaw and tight fists): WHY would God punish you for that, assuming it's a choice for most people, which it's not.
Him: Because it says so in the Bible!
Me (sensing a weakness): Okay, let's examine the Bible. The old testament was verbal folklore for generations before becoming written folklore. Even if God did inspire it, what are the chances that it wasn't embellished at all? For generations of it being told and retold, you HONESTLY don't think that anyone would have added something?
Him: No, because God wouldn't let people change His work. Everything stems from God's will.
Me: You're contradicting yourself! You say we have free will and make a choice to follow God or not, but you say we can't do anything against God's will! You're not making any sense!
Him: What are you talking about?
Me: Fine. Let's say we can't do anything God doesn't want us to do, which contradicts what you just said, but never mind. Are you saying that God wanted Hitler to slaughter millions of Jews?
Him: Well, He must have. It says in the Bible that in order for the Rapture to take place, Jerusalem must be a city again. The end of World War 2 allowed that to happen. That means that the second coming is going to happen in the near future.
Me (trying again): That's a nice little theory. But you still have mistaken assumptions. You say that God wants us all to believe in him...
Him: Yeah.
Me: So if he wants it so bad, why doesn't he prove he exists so we WILL believe in him?
Him: Because that would destroy free-will. Everybody would be Christian. We would have no choice but to do God's will.
Me (sputtering): Isn't that what he WANTS!? Everyone to be Christian? Are you saying he intentionally doesn't reveal himself so he can have an excuse to burn us? And what about an afterlife. Are you saying there's no free will there? After all, if God shows himself, everybody would have to do his will.
Him (apparantly ignoring my first point and instead going for my weaker secondary point): Heaven is our reward. Hell is our punishment.
Me: An eternity without free-will? You call that a reward? God gives us free will as a gift, punishes us when we use it on earth, and takes it away in heaven!?
Him: Exactly.
Me (trying AGAIN): Do you believe the Earth is flat?
Him: I think you know the answer to that question.
Me (hoping that answer is what he made it sound like): The Bible says the earth is flat.
Him: Only the Jewish Bible. My Bible doesn't say that.
Me: I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but the Jewish Bible (Torah, by the way) is probably the most accurate. It is in Hebrew. Your Bible was translated from Hebrew to Greek to Latin to English. A lot is lost.
Him: But it's not in my Bible.
Me: But yours is LESS ACCURATE!
Him: But it's not in my Bible.
Me: Okay, how about--
Him: I'm done arguing.
Me: Just one more point.
Him: No. I'm done. You're not changing my opinion. You can't.
Me: Do me a favor. Never have children.
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And now, to vent.
AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGG GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ah, that's better. |
