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Re: Atri, Which 'gospel'?

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Posted by Mohammad Isa Mirsiam on December 12, 2000 06:22:40 UTC

Dr. M.Who
K9-Bible Detectives & Associates
Founder/Researcher

k9doctor@altavista.com

At the moment I am involved in researching the life of Jesus ,from his birth & onward, as told in the King James version of the Bible.

Questions:

1)What is your understanding of the meaning of the words spoken, by Jesus, in John 3:14? & (What was/is the relationship of the Serpent of Moses to Jesus and his ascension or resurrection in relation to John 20:17 ?)

2)Could the stone have been moved by anyone or any animal?

3)Could the Guards have been paid off to look the other way while the stone was being moved by those who put him there and those who also rolled the stone in front of the tomb in the first place?

4)What is the meaning of Jesse's words according to Matthew 27:46 and how is it related to Jesus his surrendering to the will of God in Matthew 26:42?

4)Was Jesus resurrected in the FLESH form or in SPIRIT form according to your understanding of the description of resurrection itself as portrayed in Luke 21:35-36?

On Mon, 19 June 2000, Dr John H Stoll wrote:


Dear Dr. Who:
Thank you for your inquiry to Christian Leadership Ministries of Campus Crusade. As the Online Theologian for CLM, I was given your letter
for reply. i shall try to answer your questions.

1. In John 3:14, I believe Jesus Christ was using the event of the serpent in Moses' day, as an analogy to Himself. Just as God's instructing
Moses to place a serpent on a pole, to heal the people, so the Lord Jesus Christ would be placed on a cross for the eternal salvation (i.e. spiritual life) of mankind. It would be a spiritual healing. In John 20:17, Christ
, on the day of His resurrection, ascended to Heaven, to present Himself to His Heavenly Father, to present, as it were, His credentials of
fulfilling the work that God had sent Him to do. Until He had done that, He told Mary not to touch Him. Once He had finished His task, and presented
Himself to God, as having completed His task, He then returned to earth, and over the next 40 days presented Himself to many, who were then able to
touch Him. Had He not done so, all would have wondered as to His resurrection and where He had gone. This was to confirm his death/burial/resurrection.

2. I don't believe anyone could have rolled the stone away, except the omnipotent power of God Himself. Pilate not only had a huge stone
rolled into a socket in front of the grave, he had the seal of the Roman gov't placed on the grave, and a legion of soldiers around the grave, to
seal it. Besides, if God was able to raise Christ from the dead, rolling a stone away would not be a problem.


3. This question I believe is answered by my reply in question #2. Besides, who would want to take his body away, except His Disciples, and
they had fled away. The Sanhedrin and Saducees would have been there to see to it that no one paid off the guards.


4. In Matt. 27:46 and 26:42, I believe you see the struggle, from a human perspective, of a human man, with all the emotional understanding of
humanity, in a person who was God incarnate......... (Do you mean God which learns by Experience?)...........On one hand, when Jesus was on the cross, He fully realized what it meant for God to forsake His son,..........( Dose this mean God is sacrificing himself in place of just giving Mercy? as in Matt. 9: 13 & 1-Samuel. 15: 22 & John 17: 3)......which God had to do, since His son bore all our sins in Himself, and God in His Holiness could not.........( Do you mean that this god is an unable god? )............. look upon sin. In 26:42, Jesus realized what it would mean to go to the cross, be forsaken by His Father ( "God heard" in John 11: 41 = came through with Jesus' request. until He had cared for our sins, and this realization made Him cringe at the thought. This displays His humanity. `On the other hand, Jesus was born to die, and He knew it, so was submissive to the eternal plan of God for you and me.


5. Definitely, Jesus was resurrected in the flesh (See: Luke 24:36-40). He was seen of many after His resurrection, and certainly His being seen by His friends was proof of His bodily resurrection.


I trust this has been of help to you. If you have further inquiry, `please feel free to let me know.
- John H. Stoll, Ph.D.

On 7/10/2000 Who wrote:

My Dear Dr. Stoll,
On behalf of our team I thank you for your kind and most honest response to our questions. Would you please continue with our team in helping us to locate the Messiah Jesus. For the purpose of our research in to locating our Messiah, who was sent to the people of Israel, we do not wish to hold any presuppositions of his whereabouts or how-abouts. We are motivated by the Messiah Jesus' own statement in describing that he shall play hide and seek: (John- 13:33 ; 16:16 ;) as related to: ( Matthew 7:8; 12:40; 12:39; 16:4; (Luke 11:10;) as related to (Luke 11:30) as related to (John 4:23; 7:18; 8:50;) as related to ( Romans 11:7 [in that the Jews succeeded in convicting Jesus by voting; thus Jesus was elected to be Crucified. would you agree that Jesus was not convicted, of any crime, by any substantiated evidence but by the lack of it? as related to: (Matthew 26:60;) as related to (John 18:23 )] as related to: (John 10:34-39) Jesus defends himself against the charge of blasphemy; he shows his unwillingness to be captured; he has exposed the lies set against him [that he may have been mislabeled as "The God" and not "a god" as he is telling every one] he escapes.) as related to: (Hosea 2:23; 6:6)as related to (Matthew 9:13) as related example in (James 2:13; 3:17).


(1. "In John 3:14, I believe Jesus Christ was using the event of the serpent in Moses' day, as an analogy to Himself........................"). Our group has located another passage which may better suite the occasion as described in (John 3:14)

Numbers 21: 8,9)
8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Was There one more event in Moses time where he actually was commanded to "Lift Up" a real serpent? At this time we are told that his staff (rod) was transformed to look like a serpent" as may be related to:(Luke 24:31 "...eyes were opened"... "he vanished out of their sight.") as related to: (John 20:15 ....supposing him to be the gardener...." resurrected body may look like a gardener or a living body may be in disguise as the staff (rod) of Moses was) and as related to: (Luke 15:24;15:32 ..."he was lost, and is found."; 1 Corinthians 15:22 "...in Adam all die (not real death of flesh), even so in Christ shall all be made alive....." (spiritually)...(or found)) ; as related to: (Luke 24:23; "...angels, which said that he was alive." (they mentioned not risen)) as related by reason that we are not told that the finger was thrust in to any actually cut or pierced holes of the body of Jesus and as related to basic hygiene needed (not to be internally infected by microbes) by any physical body to survive.....: John 20:25-30 ...."Reach hither thy finger, [now in: (John 20:17"...Touch me not...")] and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing 28 ....Thomas answered ......, My LORD and my God.........29...Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 30.....signs truly did Jesus..........not written in this book."..... as related to: (Matthew 12:40 (Jonas Alive):" ... three days and three nights in the whale's belly...."; Luke 11:3 )as related to being "spiritually found or risen" as explained in: (Colossians 3:1) as related to: (Luke 20:36 "...being the children of the resurrection." ) as related to: (Revelation 19:10 "....the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.") & (Revelation 22:9) as related to: (Deuteronomy 34:10) & (Job 15:14; 25:4) as related to: (Genesis 5:1"......God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;........") as related to: ( Matthew 19:17 & Mark 10:18) as related to Adam & Jesus in the sight of God as in : ( Luke 3:38 "...... Adam, which was the son of God.")

POSSIBLE DEEPER HIDDEN MEANINGS FOUND BY OUR GROUP ASSOCIATES:

We are, at present, persuaded, by reason, to understand that "THE LIVING GOD IS FROM THE BEGINNING HAS KEPT HIS COVENANT. THE FIRST AND ONLY "REAL" COVENANT OF THE RAINBOW IS CONTINUALLY RENEWED BY DECLARATIONS THROUGH THE PROPHETS IN OUR SCRIPTURES, FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN TO CONTINUE TO DAWN ONE NEVER ENDING GENEROSITY, WHICH IS LIFE, FROM GOD.

a) Adam "died" (was lost) as described in Genesis 3:3; by the same token or meaning of death, seeing that God desires not sacrifice, (but man, by way of Satan's' deception, is "dead" or "lost" by being prone be persuaded, as the devils' advocate, in spilling blood and bringing death as evidenced by the first killing (Genesis 4:4 "Abel, ........he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof,.......") which is the way that Satan plans , by reason of jealousy and envy, to undo or dismantle what God makes, even in tempting man to tamper with the scriptures which is Gods' written mercy (law) to man. As Adam and Eve, and their seed after them, become penitent, and lived by the God given "Merciful Laws", Satan continues to delay his own doom by way of sowing the seeds of discord amongst Man (Adam) and his Seed. Inconsistencies in the scriptures become clear as one reads of the Attributes of Satan verses those of the attributes of God. God is generous and uniting for the benefit of Mankind and Satan is divisive and selfish (greedy).

For example: in (Genesis 4)

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And "the Lord" had "respect" unto Abel and to his offering: (Gods' attributes here are in quotation marks) as related to: (Psalm 50: 12 ~ If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fullness thereof. 13 ~ Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats? 14 ~ Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High:

5 BUT unto Cain and to HIS OFFERING he HAD NOT RESPECT (inconstant with the attributes of the generous and loving God, who even gave Satan respite in showing him mercy (life & time) for to repent, the attributes of Satan are in capitol letters here to separate his negative attributes which we see in him and Mankind **but not God** ) And Cain was VERY WROTH, and his countenance FELL.

We see here, for the first time, that it was both Cane, the first born, and Abel, the second born, who were both driven or motivated by competition as were their parents in the garden of Eden. We are told that Satan competes to take the place of God and as such his aim is made manifest in any who live to compete (as animals now do but did not have to before). Competition is the essence of Satan's evil which can manifest in man if the scriptures are read with out first understanding to recognize the way of our God.

i) Man was told to be fruitful and multiply (in harmony with nature as it was: "as custodian over all other life and at peace with every beast!")

ii) Man was told to make use of and eat (as they needed) all manner of vegetables and fruits (except one kind of tree that God made and placed in the gardens for the benefit of Mankind and even Satan in that from God only is the first Dawn made manifest the created things and that "all living things which are given a free will" should be content to live and let live for the glory of the first Dawn and for the glory of
the ever renewing Dawns which is in living made manifest in their life and their progeny.

Jesus, for mainly two reasons, may have chosen to die (hide) or keep his other reason hidden from his disciples) then the historic Jesus was found as related to: (Acts 2:34 "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,..")



In whom is the promise made?
a) The Jews say "in Isaac."
b) The Ishmaelite say "in Ishmael."

David, whose son was he, and of what lineage?

Of Isaac. Isaac was father of Jacob, and Jacob was father of
Judah, of whose lineage is David.

And the messenger of God "The Messiah" when he came, of what lineage
was he?
a) Of David?
b) Of Ishmael?

When David [as related to: (Psalm 110:1) & (Acts 2:34)] in spirit calls him (The Messiah) Lord, saying: "God said to my lord" sit thou on my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool. God shall send forth thy rod which shall have lordship in the midst of thine enemies."

If the messenger of God whom is called "The Messiah" were son of David, how should
David call him lord?

This question has (for now persuaded us to look at the possibility that the promise was made / (may have been made)in Ishmael, not in Isaac.'

b) Jesus Prayes to God: (Matthew 26:39)

On Mon, 19 June 2000, Dr John H Stoll wrote:

Dear Dr. Who:
Thank you for your inquiry to Christian Ledaership Ministries of Campus Crusade. As the Online Theologian for CLM, I was given your letter
for reply. i shall try to answer your questions.

1. In John 3:14, I believe Jesus Christ was using the event of the serpent in Moses' day, as an analogy to Himself. Just as God's instructing
Moses to place a serpent on a pole, to heal the people, so the Lord Jesus Christ would be placed on a cross for the eternal salvation (i.e. spiritual life) of mankind. It would be a spiritual healing. In John 20:17, Christ
, on the day of His resurrection, ascended to Heaven, to present Himself to His Heavenly Father, to present, as it were, His credentials of
fulfilling the work that God had sent Him to do. Until He had done that, He told Mary not to touch Him. Once He had finished His task, and presented
Himself to God, as having completed His task, He then returned to earth, and over the next 40 days presented Himself to many, who were then able to
touch Him. Had He not done so, all would have wondered as to His resurrection and where He had gone. This was to confirm His death/burial/resurrection.


Then ascended Jesus to the place whence the scribes were wont to speak. And having beckoned with the hand for silence, he opened his mouth, saying:

'Blessed be the holy name of God, who of his goodness and mercy willed to create his creatures that they might glorify him.

Blessed be the holy name of God, who created the splendor of all the saints and prophets before all things to send him for the salvation of the world, as he spoke by his servant David, saying: "Before Lucifer in the brightness of the saints I created thee."

Blessed be the holy name of God, who created the angels that they might serve him. And blessed be God, who punished and reprobated Satan and his
followers, who would not reverence him whom God willeth to be reverenced.

Blessed be the holy name of God, who created man out of the clay of the earth, and set him over his works. Blessed be the holy name of God, who drove man out of paradise for having transgressed his holy precept.

Blessed be the holy name of God, who with mercy looked upon the tears of Adam and Eve, first parents of the human race.

Blessed be the holy name of God who just punished Cain the fratricide, sent the deluge upon the earth.

Burned up three wicked cities, scourged Egypt, overwhelmed Pharaoh in the Red Sea, scattered the enemies of his people, chastised the unbelievers and punished the impenitent. Blessed be the holy name of God, who with mercy looked upon his creatures, and therefore sent them his holy prophets, that they might walk in truth and righteousness before him; who delivered his
servants from every evil, and gave them this land, as he promised to our father Abraham and to his son for ever. Then by his servant Moses he gave us
his holy law, that Satan should not deceive us: and he exalted us above all other peoples.

'But, brethren, what do we to-day, that we be not punished for our sins?'

And then Jesus with greatest vehemence rebuked the people for that they had forgotten the word of God, and gave themselves only to vanity; he
rebuked the priests for their negligence in God's service and for their worldly greed; he rebuked the scribes because they preached vain doctrine, and forsook the law of God; he rebuked the doctors because they made the law of God of none effect through their traditions. And in such wise did Jesus speak to the people, that all wept, from the least to the greatest, crying mercy, and
beseeching Jesus that he would pray of them; save only their priests and leaders, who on that day conceived hatred against Jesus for having thus spoken against the priests, scribes, and doctors. And they meditated upon his death, but for fear of the people, who had received him as a prophet of God, they spoke no word.

Jesus raised his hands to the Lord God and prayed, and the people weeping said: 'So be it, O Lord, so be it.' The prayer being ended, Jesus descended from the temple; and that day he departed from Jerusalem, with many that followed him.

And the priests spoke evil of Jesus among themselves.

Jesus answered: 'And I ask you, for what cause have ye annulled the precept of God to observe your traditions? Ye say to the sons of poor fathers: "Offer and make vows unto the temple." And they make vows of that little wherewith they ought to support their fathers. And when their fathers wish to take money, the sons cry out: "This money is consecrated to God"; whereby the fathers suffer. O false scribes. hypocrites, cloth God use this money? Assuredly not, for God eateth not, as he saith by his servant David the prophet:

``Shall I then eat the flesh of bulls and drink the blood of sheep? Render unto me the sacrifice of praise, and offer unto me thy vows: for if I should be hungry I will not ask aught of thee. seeing that all things are in my hands, and the abundance of paradise is with me." Hypocrites' ye do this to fill your purse, and therefore ye tithe rue and mint. Oh miserable ones! for unto others ye show the most clear way, by which ye will not go.

'Ye scribes and doctors lay upon the shoulders of others weights of unbearable weight, but ye yourselves the while are not willing to move them with one of your fingers.


'Verily I say unto you, that every prophet when he is come hath borne to one nation only the mark of the mercy of God. And so their words were not extended save to that people to which they were sent. But the messenger of God, when he shall come, God shall give to him as it were the seal of his hand, insomuch that he shall carry salvation
and mercy to all the nations of the world that shall receive his doctrine. He shall come with power upon the ungodly, and shall destroy idolatry, insomuch that he shall make Satan confounded; for so promised God to Abraham, saying: "Behold, in thy seed I will bless all the tribes of the earth; and as thou hast broken in pieces the idols, O Abraham, even so shall thy seed do."'

James answered: 'O master, tell us in whom this promise as made; for the Jews say "in Isaac," and the Ishmaelites say 'in Ishmael." '

Jesus answered: 'David, whose son was he, and of what lineage?'

James answered: 'Of Isaac; for Isaac was father of Jacob, and Jacob was father of Judah, of whose lineage is David.'

Then said Jesus: 'And the messenger of God when he shall come, of what lineage will he be?'

The disciples answered: 'Of David.'

Whereupon Jesus said: 'Ye deceive yourselves; for David in spirit calleth him lord, saying thus: "God said to my lord, sit thou on my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool. God shall send forth thy rod which shall have lordship in the midst of thine enemies." If the messenger of God whom ye call Messiah were son of David, how should David call him lord? Believe me, for verily I say to you, that the promise was made in
Ishmael, not in Isaac.'


My Dear Dr. Stoll,
On behalf of our team I thank you for your kind and most honest respose to our questions. Would you please continue with our team in helping us to locate the Mesiah Jesus. For the perpose of our research in to locating our Mesiah, who was sent to the people of Israel, we do not wish to hold any presuppositions of his whereabouts or howabouts. We are motivated by the Mesiah Jesus' own statement in describing that he shall play hide and seek: (John- 13:33 ; 16:16 ;) as related to: ( Matthew 7:8; 12:40; 12:39; 16:4; (Luke 11:10;) as related to (Luke 11:30) as related to (John 4:23; 7:18; 8:50;) as related to ( Romans 11:7 [in that the Jews sucseeded in convicting Jesus by voting; thus Jesus was ellected to be Crusified. would you agree that Jesus was not covicted, of any crime, by any substantiated evidence but by the lack of it? as related to: (Matthew 26:60;) as related to (John 18:23 )] as related to: (John 10:34-39) Jesus deffends himself against the charge of blasphemy; he shows his unwillingness to be captured; he has exposed the lies set against him [that he may have been mislabled as "The God" and not "a god" as he is telling every one] he escapes.) as related to: (Hosea 2:23; 6:6)as related to (Matthew 9:13) as related example in (James 2:13; 3:17).

Because of certain World events, and in our observance of certain signes, our group associates have posed some new questions. We are concerned for we all seek to find "the universal truth" in the original "Covenant" of the rainbow which was confirmed, with our prophet, Noah.

Questions:

In whom is the promise made?

a) The Jews say "in Isaac."
b) The Ishmaelites say "in Ishmael."

David, whose son was he? and of what lineage? Of Isaac? Was Isaac father of Jacob?
And was Jacob father of Judah? Of the lineage of Judah is David?

And the "The Messiah" when he came, of what lineage was he?

a) Of David?
b) Of Ishmael?

Now when David [in relation to: (Psalm 110:1) & (Acts 2:34)], in spirit, calls him "The Messiah" Lord, saying: "God said to my lord" sit thou on my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool. God shall send forth thy rod which shall have lordship in the midst of thine enemies."

If the messenger of God whom is called "The Messiah" is the son of David, how should
David call him lord?

** This question has, at the moment amongst other questions, persuaded us to look at the possibility that the promise may have been made in Ishmael, not in Isaac.

Although it is written, in the book of Moses, that in Isaac the promise was made, We are persuaded to belive that Moses Did not write it nither did Joshua write it but rather but rather our rabbins, who do not fear God. If we are to consider the words of the angel Gabriel, we shall discover the malice of our scribes and doctors. (Isaiah 63:15-17) as related to: (Deuteronomy 21: 15-17) here our scribes deeds are exposed (Ezekiel 3:26-2 "...rebellious house..)

For the angel said: "Abraham, all the world shall know how God loveth thee; but how shall the world know the love that thou bearest to God? Assuredly it is necessary that thou do something for love of God." Abraham answered: "Behold the servant of God, ready to do all that which God shall will."



What is your opinion?
in consideration of a fact that (( Nehemiah 9:6-8. [8: And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous] )) Ishmailites were not included in the name of those which the land was taken from to be given to "All" the seed of Abraham (and in particular as related to

We have many other inquiries. We should like to hear your opinions on them. Once we have complied enough facts, that we can submit for your review, we wish to ask of your interest in becoming involved in our search for our historical "Jewish Messiah" Jesus.

Respectfully yours!!

_M.Who, D.O.D.
K9-Bible Detectives & Associates
Founder/Researcher
*************************************************************************END
Deuteronomy 4:32 This Chapter Deuteronomy 4:31-33 For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and ask from the one side of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any
such thing as this great thing is, or hath been heard like it?

My Dear Dr. Stoll,

On behalf of our team I thank you for your kind and most honest response to our questions.

Would you please, by your generous consideration, continue with our team in helping us to locate the Messiah Jesus. For the purpose of our research in to locating our Messiah, who was sent to the people of Israel, we do not wish to hold any presuppositions of his where-abouts or how-abouts. We are motivated by the Messiah Jesus' own statement in describing that he shall play hide and seek: (John- 13:33 ; 16:16 ;) as related to: ( Matthew 7:8; 12:40; 12:39; 16:4; (Luke 11:10;) as related to (Luke 11:30) as related to (John 4:23; 7:18; 8:50;) as related to (Romans 11:7 [in that the Jews succeeded in convicting Jesus by voting; thus Jesus was elected to be Crucified. would you agree that Jesus was not convicted, of any crime, by any substantiated evidence but by the lack of it? as related to: (Matthew 26:60;) as related to (John 18:23 )] as related to: (John 10:34-39) Jesus defends himself against the charge of blasphemy; he shows his unwillingness to be captured; he has exposed the lies set against him [that he may have been mislabeled as "The God" and not "a god" as he is telling every one] he escapes.) as related to: (Hosea 2:23; 6:6)as related to (Matthew 9:13) as related example in (James 2:13; 3:17).

Because of current world events, by the observance of certain signs, our group associates have posed some new questions. We are concerned for we all seek for existing facts, from our Bible, so that we may propagate "Gods' Universal Truth" which lies in Gods' original 'Covenant Of The Rainbow' which was reestablished and confirmed, with our prophet, Noah and all the prophets in his progeny.

Questions:

In whom is the promise made?

a) The Jews say "in Isaac."
b) The Ishmaelites say "in Ishmael."

David, whose son was he? and of what lineage? Of Isaac? Was Isaac father of Jacob?
And was Jacob father of Judah? Of the lineage of Judah is David?

And the "The Messiah" when he came, of what lineage was he?

a) Of David?
b) Of Ishmael?

Now when David [in relation to: (Psalm 110:1) & (Acts 2:34)], in spirit, calls him
"The Messiah" Lord, saying: "God said to my lord" sit thou on my right hand until
I make thine enemies thy footstool. God shall send forth thy rod which shall have
lordship in the midst of thine enemies."

**If the messenger of God whom is called "The Messiah" is the son of David, how should
David call him lord?

** This question has, at the moment, amongst other questions, persuaded us to look at the possibility that the promise may have been made in Ishmael, not in Isaac. However I, and others of our associate members, find ourselves driven, by the will of God, and by the 'enjoining' passages in our Bibles, su............

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