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|Re: Absolute Zero
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Posted by Tön/">Tön on February 6, 1999 23:24:46 UTC
: : It is hard to counter your arguments when you definition of god is thoroughly considered. From how you present him, he is constantly an exception to any rules that : governs us. You cap him over as an absolute in any statement we submit. From what I understand of your beliefs, God and the universe is a dualistic arrangement. : God looking over the fish bowl and us in it.
: Your right, you can't encapsulate an almighty God; who is above and beyond any scope of our imagination. For if you could, you would be defining God on your : own terms and in a sense would be defining yourself as deity. I want to be careful how I define and explain the following concerning your statement, "...he is : constantly an exception to any rules that govern us." First off, God is revealed in his creation as He states in His Word, however He is not confined nor oppressed by : His creation. He however, does operate within the laws that He has created in nature, but He is not confined to do so. This is what defines both examples that : God displays Himself to be; both natural and supernatural. If He were only natural within the confines of His creation then God would thus had to have been : created, thus eliminating him, as its defined, the term god. It takes Gods supernatural nature to create something from nothing, period. This is the supernatural, : this is design.
: The idea of God is that of holy (set apart from evil), perfect, just and logically congruent. He does not defy logic nor lie so as to undermine who He really is. God : cannot lie, cannot be evil at the same time He is perfect. This is an opposite I would like to expound upon.
: This is my reasoning regarding God as THE absolute of all absolutes. God could never be anything against His very nature. He cannot be evil at the same time : He is good. This is my argument against yours that in a sense you suggest that an absolute is variable. How in the world do you come to this assumption? Doesn't : pure logic fly in the face of this? This is one of many truth tests that test the internal and external inconsistencies of all world religions.
: " I can sit here and believe that there is an opposite to God based on the corruption of my logic. Just because MY religion says so." and you know what, your : exactly right; you can sit there and believe anything you wish, but in the bottom of your heart you have to come to grips with reality and what logic defines. You may : hold fast to a corrupted logic, but why? Why not hold to something that is congruent with what reality defines? You may come back and say, " Well, it is our : perception of reality that leads us to what is logical or not, thus who is to say what is reality?"... My friend this is relativism and is a eager approach to bury our heads : in the sand and then suggest that the sand is now all that constitutes reality. God has given us a mind to think, reason and therefore be without excuse for the glory of : His creation that we observe. We are not an illusion; i'm not suggesting you state this, but many pantheistic world views see this. i.e. buddhism.
: : I can sit here and believe that there is an opposite to God based on the corruption of my logic. Just because MY religion says so. At this point I believe that we'll : have to understand our "social" construction of reality, logic, and beliefs. But since God is always a BIG exception to the process, I'll have to be throw that out the : window.
: : Should I admit my naturalist tendency now?
: I think we all have tendencies towards naturalism. I, not in a strict sense of the word, would define my observations in the world to be rather naturalistic also. But see, : this is where we tend to desire to "throw God out the window" because He doesn't fit 'our' model. This to me is insane. We have now just defined ourselves as god : then; ignoring all of reality we observe, we now come to the conclusion that an absolute God does not exist because God is not congruent with reality. Oh really? So : God is not reality? Just because God doesn't fit our purely naturalistic perception of reality we then throw God out the window? Hmmm... Seems our very : human nature that desires to be like god (knowledge of how 'we' define what is right or wrong) starts coming through. Just because God uses the very laws of nature : he has created doesn't mean that He now does not exist. You see, apart from God we are nothing in the first place. Apart from our 4 dimensions that we constitute : as reality, there is void. There are no natural laws. Now that God created the laws He has, because they seem like second nature to us because we live by them, it : does not give us the authority to do away with the original creator, does it?
: : : It has proven that what belies the obviousness of what surrounds us, what makes sense to us, ryme or reason, is always an opposite. Can you disprove to me the : opposite? As I have said before, the manifest(time, entropy) give birth to each other (yin and yang). It is logical to me. Can the answers be so complex?
: Yes, there is an opposite to everything. There is an opposite to logic, there is an opposite to truth. There is an opposite to good, and there is an opposite to design. : What are they? Respectively, illogical, lie, evil and the antithesis of intelligent design is "chance".
: My question to you is, what has this proven? Does it undermine that what is logical, perfect, truthful and designed? I think it only serves to display the opposite to : obedience, and this is rebellion.
: P.S. I do not wish to sound condescending. I thoroughly enjoy talking with you and everyone else. : ) May it always be, God bless not God less. : ) _____
Thank God I am not buddist :-)
What is the opposite of us? God. What is the opposite of God? Us. Indeed, the hidden and manifest give birth to each other.
What has it proven? That if God is our opposite, then the answer to our existence is answered. If God is our opposite, in the scientific and human perpective, then there is no way we can can even fathom what he is. BUT we can be assured that without him being our opposite, we will not exist.
I remember in my very Catholic childhood a question to my mother as she put me to bed. I asked my mother why God created us. She answered, he was lonely...he needed someone to love. The source to me has always been a simple equation. Everything else seems so tainted by the arrogance of our intellect.
Let me share something to you from the Tao Teh Ching so you can understand, a little bit, my persuation.
The Tao is like an empty bowl, Which in being used can never be filled up. Fathomless, it seems to be the origin of all things. It blunts all sharp edges, It unties all tangles, It harmonizes all lights, It unites the world into one whole. Hidden in the deeps, Yet it seems to exist for ever, I do not know whose child it is; It seems to be the common ancestor of all, the father of things.
It's actually poetry and not philosophy.
God Bless Tön
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