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Cheers Harv!

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Posted by Alan on December 31, 2003 10:26:58 UTC

Hi Harv,

you do not seem to be aware of the very powerful arguments Thomas Szasz has bought to bear on these issues. I suggest see his web-site and also read letters there! Also see his books "The Manufacture Of Madness", "Insanity. The Idea And Its Consequences", "Law, Liberty, and Psychiatry", and "Shizophrenia".

How about even answer my questionaire directly!?
If they are "loaded questions" please tell me details....

The fact remains: no matter what beliecers in "mental illness" say: look at what they do.

You have no argument about the graphic evidence against the claims of pschiatry to be found in any psychiatric textbook, in the DSM, and in patho-physioplogy texts.

It is "illnesses" defined as behaviours.

If one is to claim that a person "doesn't know what is best for them because they are too sick to know"; one is to open the door on paternalism and rampant dictatorship.

"But, I also have to be straightforward to you, and that puts me in the unfortunate position of appearing to be rude."

And you appear to be jumping top conclusions based on failure to look at the content of my posts! You dispute my claims of apparent insights on physics; not on technical argument grounds; but it seems on assumptions!

At Counterbalance when I said I could map heaps of physics; you mistakenly assumed I was a "math-whiz". Here when I mentioned mapping heaps of physics you just said to me that I did not!

That is jumping to conclusions based on assumptions!

Pschiatrists have been said to play a game of "heads I win, tails you lose".

Once one gets into the right frame of mind, anything can seem to be a "symptom" of their so-called mental; illnesses.

Ironically: instead of al;leged madman seeing say martians around every corner; we have psychiatrists seeing mental illness like tending to be found "around every corner" say!

I am rather amazed say at what you do here!:

"and mentally ill people"
"will continue to be diagnosed"
"and symptoms"
"will continue to receive medications"

The way you broke down every half sentence of mine, in itself strikes me as somewhat autistic in it's concern for inconsequentials. "


S O R R Y if that offends but it now seems impolite to not say this! I do not think you are stupid or thick but I want you to wake up please!!!!

You have got into "mental-illness mongering" big time ?

I broke up your phrasees because their was so much error it seemed convenient to pull your material apart piece by piece.

You are doing the equivalent of those who testified that "witches" were real? If you try hard enough and avoid logic but just look through PREJUDICED glasses... well...

WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote: "You don't realize it, but these are symptoms that something is wrong in Denmark. Taken by themself, that is an absurd statement, but taken together with all the other bizarre and lengthy posts that you have posted, and this statement of mine is no longer absurd."


"Correct; but "addiction to drugs" is not a medical illness; it is a claim about behaviour. While it is possible that physical medicine can become involved (the body may become accustomed to certain balances of hormones after adjusting itself to influence of drugs; this may generate a craving like a thirst for water.) But the responsibility remains that a person chose to take drugs; Gandhi's hunger-strike reminds us that even taking of food is a free choice influenced by bodily state but not solely determined by bodily state.

It depends on who you ask. Research indicates that some people have a higher proclivity to addiction than others, not much different than some people have a higher proclivity to certain diseases. Besides, what really is the difference between neurons that are developing 'out of control' with respect to the rest of the mind and cells that are out of control with respect to the rest of the body's cells? One kills the body the other kills the mind."

"Mind" is not a physical organ. If you look at WHAT pschiatrists ACTUALLY DO you will find the whole thing is FRAUD! NEUROLOGY is not pschiatry.

"KJills the mind" is metaphorical wishful thinking. Who is to say what is CORRECT MIND? THOUGHT POLICE? READ THE TORTURE SCENE BETWEEN OBRIEN AND WINSTON IN ORWELL"S "1984" PLEASE!

"Ultimately it is a value judgement to say that just because one series of developments afflicts the body is a disease, whereas another series of developments that afflict the mind is merely behavior."

I agrtee with Ivan Illich: As soon as physical medicine says a particular BODILY state is "disease" AND intervention is proposed; it is a MORAL enterprise claiming certain "wrongs" need be "righted".

But cellular pathology is the difference between make-belive diseases of pschiatry and real diseases of medicine!

"You cannot so easily divide the body and mind into such neat categories as psychosomatic illnesses suggest. The mind can afflict the body, and the body can inflict the mind."


The fact that minding the step can affect the body by preventing tripping over for example: so...?

"He talked to "imaginary person" if you like; and knew he was doing so. In this case there was a physical factor involved; oxygen deprivation at altitude. But his "talking to imaginary person" IS NOT AN ILLNESS. It points to a physical phenomenon in this case: the real "illness" was oxygen deprivation.

That's just a subtle eliminativism of the mind argument, and I don't buy into that physical reductionist philosophy of mind."

I was not reducing "mind", I was showing that oxygen-deprivation is a demonstrable medical state that is not the same thing as "talking to an imaginary person". One has the appearance of choosing whether one talks, oxygen seems to depend on altitude.

STRICTLY SPEAKING: AS I INDICATED: In the Kingdom of Heaven it may be like this:

In the right state, a human being is in such harmony with the universe that the very air will obey him. In this case: oxygen lack at high altitude can be solved instantly, by teleporting someplace else or by other supernatural means.
Or by carrying a spare oxygen cylinder...!

"The brain, if treated as an organ, has particular functions. The difference between the mind and brain is a confusing one at best, but what is clear is that affecting the brain affects the mind AND affecting the mind also affects the brain, physically speaking."

I never denied that minding affects body bhealth. It is not relevant; except that in a natural state ones body is transparent to consciousness and is like pure light.

"Yes, we can always find physical conditions to effect the mind (e.g., LSD), BUT we also find a way of behavior that causes changes to the brain over a period of time as MRI images of certain mentally ill brains have observed."

That a runner may get "runners high" after jogging 2 miles does not mean that "jogging" is an illness. Non-sequitur! More is required to meet physical illness criteria.

You could call all states "illnesses"; but then evereyone is ill and no one is ill. The line of cellular pathology is not crossed by psychiatry; if it is they kick it out of psychiatry like peresis I gather.

"Someday it might be possible to identify all mental illnesses (e.g., AS) with such kind of brain imaging technology, it is certainly not outside the abilities of imaging technology."

The criteria of these alleged illnesses are so vague and subjective that looks like wishful thinkking! And identifyiong a physical correlate to a dissaproved behaviour is not enough to prove anything. You might identify Jewish genes in people who practice Jewish culture: does that make the HOLOCAUST a hygiene programme? NO!

"Now, just as abnormal behaviors can effect the brain's chemistry, it is also clear that normal behaviors also effect the brain as well."

What dictaorship is this so-called "normality"?

"And, not just the brain, but the body. You're argument is not rational since it acts as if there are no mind-body dependences."

NOT CORRECT. First: please define "mind".

In practice it means "minding"; it is a verb not a noun. I never denied the connection between body health and paying attention. Obviously if you ignore an oncoming train your body may suffer.

"The mind and body are interdependent on each other, and diseases can afflict both."

Obviously if you get pneumonia you may not feel like paying attention to the mathematical inticacies of advanced calculus.

That does not make metaphorical illnesses real!

"top physicist Stephen Wolfram (highly respected!) has ben reported as saying that physics will turn out to be mind-numbingly gobsmackingly simple! (or similar adjectives)

It is common for a mental illness such as Asperger's syndrome (AS) to make a patient become focused on a pet theory to the point to where it leads to abnormal interaction with others."

You are dictating rules of "normal behaviour"!

You do not even pay attention to a lot of my content!

"Yes, physics might come down to simple principles, no one disputes that possibility, but when that leads to completely bizarre thinking (e.g., an infatuation with infanthood, nursery rhymes, etc)"

What accusations are these?

Your rules?

" that is completely out of touch with society and obviously afflicting the individual."

It seems to be afflicting you???!!!! WAKE UP HARV!

Who cares if I am "out of touch" according to Harv's rules? Or anyone's rules? GET REAL! You are out of touch with my argument say when you are not rational?

"It is leading to an illness of the mind."


"As I say; you do not have enough information. I do not like psychiatric rape of human beings. I do not want to be denied my moral agency.

This is the tough aspect of getting a cure for an illness of the mind. In the case of a bodily illness, the mind decides if the treatment is sound. As long as the mind is healthy, it can see the logic in getting treatment. In the case of the mind, it is the mind that needs treatment, but if the mind is ill, then it is an ill mind that must decide to get treatment for itself. Unfortunately an ill mind is ill because it wants to pursue the thoughts that make it ill, so treatment is not an option. Instead the mind will seek out to undermine psychological science in an attempt to remain untreated. This is perhaps why society ignores mental illness since it does seem to be interferring with people's rights. That's why we have paranoid schizophrenics allowed to roam society until they inflict huge consequences and perhaps criminal behavior. If our society would just realize that mental illness is an illness, and should be treated even by force if necessary, then thousands of incidents per year could be avoided. And, the most important thing, millions of lives would be benefitted, including people with AS."

Totalitarianism destroys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




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