Back to Home

God & Science Forum Message

Forums: Atm · Astrophotography · Blackholes · Blackholes2 · CCD · Celestron · Domes · Education
Eyepieces · Meade · Misc. · God and Science · SETI · Software · UFO · XEphem
RSS Button

Home | Discussion Forums | God and Science | Post

Be the first pioneers to continue the Astronomy Discussions at our new Astronomy meeting place...
The Space and Astronomy Agora
No Eric

Forum List | Follow Ups | Post Message | Back to Thread Topics | In Response To
Posted by Harvey on October 31, 2003 16:15:54 UTC


I try to get through to you the very basics of Christian teaching as relayed from the words of Jesus and even the words of Paul. Still, you cling to words that are in direct opposition to Christianity as described by the Savior and the lead writing apostle. Okay, let me try and answer your most basic questions. I cannot make you believe that Christian doctrine is critical of actions supposedly spoken by God, but at least I can try.

Why debate the Bible if you don’t believe it is the Word of God ?

Okay, let's begin here. This is somewhat elementary for a Christian, but since you obviously don't know this, I will teach you.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

* The actual 'Word of God' is the Logos who in the fullness of flesh is Jesus.

Acts 4:31 "And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness."

* The word of God comes with being filled with the Holy Spirit

Acts 6:2 "Then the twelve summoned the multitude of the disciples and said, 'It is not desirable that we should leave the word of God and serve tables.'"

* The word of God is communicated by those filled with the Holy Spirit ('the disciples')

Acts 6:11 "Then they secretly induced men to say, "We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses and God."

* These words that were spread by the disciples were known as blasphemous to Moses' words and God's words. That is, they directly contradicted the dipiction of God and God's words as written in the Hebrew Bible.

Acts 12:24 "But the word of God grew and multiplied."

* The word of God is fluid and grows.

Acts 13:46 "Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles."

* The believers of the Hebrew Bible, were the first to hear the word of God from the apostles, but rejected it, so Paul and Barnabas reached out to the Gentile world. Note: they did not hear the word of God prior to it being preached by them.

Acts 15:7 "And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe."

* The word of God is identified as the word of the gospel of Christ.

Acts 20:32 "So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified."

* The word of God is identified as the word of God's grace (key word: GRACE).

2 Corinthians 5:19 "that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation."

* The word of God is identified as the word of reconciliation with God.

Colossians 4:3 "meanwhile praying also for us, that God would open to us a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in chains,"

* Earlier in Colossians the writings of the Hebrew Bible were said to be human commands and teachings, but here in Col.4 we see that the word of God is concerning the mystery of Christ.

2 Timothy 2:15 "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

* The word of God is identified as the word of truth, and needs to be judged properly by the man of God.

Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

* The word of God is living, that is, it changes, it is fluid, it goes through stages of development all the while it is working in the hearts of men convicting and proding.

1 John 2:14 "I have written to you, fathers, Because you have known Him who is from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, And you have overcome the wicked one."

The Word of God is something that is in the Christian, it is not a book.

Revelation 19:13 "He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God."

* Jesus is the Word of God.

RE:>> * And, your house is not clean. *
Go ahead, name my sin !

"Yes, 1 Samuel 15:2-3 is part of God's word."

Romans 11:32 "For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all."

You do not speak for God when you suggest that God is one to have all children and animals killed by a military machine. It is simply unbelievable that you continue on with this line of argument despite all the scriptures I quoted about God's grace, mercy, love. It is as though you do not really believe in the word of God as revealed to his apostles and spoken by Jesus himself.

I do not dismiss this, I prove all things and hold fast that which is good.

No you aren't. By advocating the evil depiction of God as a slaughterer of innocents, you are not holding fast to anything that is good in this situation.

We are back to it – How do YOU determine what God’s words are ? Be very careful in your answer, my friend.

1 Corinthians 2:11 "For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God."

If I have told you the truth, then you are convicting God of lying. Shouldn’t we concentrate on what the Bible says rather than what our own behaviour is ? Do we kill the messenger because the message offends us ?

Concentrate what the word of God says, which I don't think you are doing. This is why you cannot see the plain of day in this issue and are, in effect, imputing to God the actions of evil.

Do you believe that everything that God said in the Old Testament was to be a CONTINUING ordinance ? ( From henceforth, kill all infants ? ) YD?. Is this a periodic ordinance ? Sometimes an ordinance and sometimes not ?

You are not understanding the very basics of the Christian message. It isn't just the ordinances that were revoked as human commands and teachings, it is the whole understanding that these Hebrew minds had of God which was in darkness.

Romans 11:25 "For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in"

The God of the universe was a hidden mystery prior to Jesus, and now that mystery is been revealed, and it has revealed the character and nature of God. If you insist on maintaining that the Hebrew scriptures were a revelation of God's true nature, then you are not understanding the identity of God as revealed by Jesus Christ. I can't be any more clear than this.

which verses in Colossians 2 do you refer to for your clarity claim ? You are out of context and a text without a context is just a pretext.

Colossians 2:13-15 "When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross."

This talks about the complete cancellation of the written code that was directly attributed to God.

Deuteronomy 5: 28-30 "The LORD heard you when you spoke to me and the LORD said to me, 'I have heard what this people said to you. Everything they said was good. Oh, that their hearts would be inclined to fear me and keep all my commands always, so that it might go well with them and their children forever! Go, tell them to return to their tents. But you stay here with me so that I may give you all the commands, decrees and laws you are to teach them to follow in the land I am giving them to possess.'"

BUT, this is what Colossians attributes these commands:

Col.2:20-23 "Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence."

There is no attributing these words as direct words from God as in Deuteronomy 5:28-30. Rather, they are based on human commands and teachings that have a self-imposed worship having a false humility. The message is absolutely clear. The words of the Hebrew bible, are not necessarily the word of God, but they are construed as the word of God, some of which we, as Christians, are to understand their spiritual intent and to not obey their physical significance or attribute them as God's words. The word of God, the gospel, was a hidden mystery until the coming of Jesus.

How simple do you want it? Must I teach you the very basics of Christianity? You should feel ashamed that you don't know the things I speak. This should embarrass you! How do you respond to it? With denial, or with acceptance?

Follow Ups:

Login to Post
Additional Information
About Astronomy Net | Advertise on Astronomy Net | Contact & Comments | Privacy Policy
Unless otherwise specified, web site content Copyright 1994-2018 John Huggins All Rights Reserved
Forum posts are Copyright their authors as specified in the heading above the post.
"dbHTML," "AstroGuide," "ASTRONOMY.NET" & "VA.NET"
are trademarks of John Huggins