Back to Home

God & Science Forum Message

Forums: Atm · Astrophotography · Blackholes · Blackholes2 · CCD · Celestron · Domes · Education
Eyepieces · Meade · Misc. · God and Science · SETI · Software · UFO · XEphem
RSS Button

Home | Discussion Forums | God and Science | Post

Be the first pioneers to continue the Astronomy Discussions at our new Astronomy meeting place...
The Space and Astronomy Agora
Here's More

Forum List | Follow Ups | Post Message | Back to Thread Topics | In Response To
Posted by Paul R. Martin on June 8, 2003 17:58:39 UTC

Hi Harv,

Good to hear from you and good to hear we're on the right track. Here are my changes/additions to your list:

"4) Human concepts such as mathematics and logic are necessitated by God's existence. He is extra-logical and extra-mathematical in his existence."

To this I would add: But we must be careful to be clear about what we mean by "Human concepts", and more basically, what we mean by "Human". In the ordinary vernacular, it is clear what we mean by human beings. We think of human beings as bodies with brains. But I reject the common notion that all mentality is located in the brain. For the majority of people, who accept that notion, "Human concepts" is unambiguous and simply means concepts that are in the brain of a human body. In order to understand my point of view, this notion must be abandoned or you may not proceed beyond this point. In my view, all conscious mentality is located outside the brain, so either there is no such thing as a "Human concept" or else we are talking about a concept in the mind of God that is transmitted to the brain of a particular human being. In this particular case, God, while actively driving that particular human being, has the illusion that that particular concept is lodged somewhere just behind the eyeballs of that particular body.

"5) Mathematical and logical concepts of the infinite are reducible to finite structures. Infinite structures lead to contradictions and are based on faulty reasoning of those finite structures (e.g., math axioms). "

Nothing is salvageable here except the structure of the sentences which I will try to use:

Mathematical concepts of the infinite are definible based on finite structures. Logical concepts of the infinite are deducible from those definitions and the prior structures. Infinite structures lead to contradictions because the very concept of the infinite is inconsistent with the prior art (i.e. primitives, definitions, axioms, and theorems).

"6) God cannot be considered finite or infinite. Since these are mathematical concepts that are emergent concepts, they do not properly represent reduced reality. They are non-sensical in terms a fully reduced reality. "

I waver on whether to accept this or not. I certainly agree in the infinite case. In the finite case, I am not sure. If I accept it, I will have to stop saying "God is finite". I guess I can stop saying that, but I will all the more insist that "God is not infinite!!" I will accept 6).

"9) The temporal beginning of this mental formation of all things is a non-sensical question. The beginning of all things should be understood as a) God exists, b) his mental properties create, c) the universes exist. This process has not been 'happening' indefinitely in the past (i.e., infinite past). Rather all things past, present, and future already 'exist' as a property of God's mental awareness which requires that these things 'just exist'. "

In the first sentence, change "non-sensical" to "difficult". In the last sentence, change "property" to "consequence", and change "requires that these things 'just exist'" to "is a given based on assumptions 1) and 2). It is worth noting and emmphasizing that each and every theory, guess, explanation, or speculation, on the fundamental basis of reality faces this same difficult question, and none has an advantage over another in this respect. 'Turtles all the way down' even stands its ground among the rest of the field."

"11) God also thought of many ways for dimensional univeres to evolve. Our universe was created by the thought of an evolutionary universe. Over our temporal timeline, life began to evolve and eventually the evolution of conscious biology began to evolve. God has imagined it all. "

Change both appearances of "began to evolve" to "began to evolve with a considerable amount of specific directed intervention in some pertinent quantum events by God deliberately choosing the outcome of those events."

"12) All of God's temporal experiences with regard to biological lifeforms is just one perspective (viewing angle), however it must be understood that all things past, present, and future already exist as a property of God's mental awareness. The experience of time is just another thought of God that exists. "

Change "understood that all things past," to "understood that, from the perspective (viewing angle) which God enjoys while driving a particular body, all things past,". After the last sentence, add: Note that God is able to view reality from many different perspectives (viewing angles), so, in addition to the perspective of a linear temporal dimension in which human bodies act out their world lines, there are other perspectives from which those world lines appear more or less dynamic and more or less fixed and singular.

"I stopped here because I wanted to expose you to some hidden assumptions that must be dealt with. You (15) must be written in a manner that is consistent with (9)."

I hope I have sufficiently cleared up (9) for you.

"If all God's mental thoughts are a property of God's mind, either all mental thoughts 'exist' as a property of God, or God is a property or co-property of time. "

The notions of "property" and "co-property" are too vague and ill-defined for me to comment on this assertion.

I hope this has been helpful.

Warm regards,


Follow Ups:

    Login to Post
    Additional Information
    About Astronomy Net | Advertise on Astronomy Net | Contact & Comments | Privacy Policy
    Unless otherwise specified, web site content Copyright 1994-2018 John Huggins All Rights Reserved
    Forum posts are Copyright their authors as specified in the heading above the post.
    "dbHTML," "AstroGuide," "ASTRONOMY.NET" & "VA.NET"
    are trademarks of John Huggins