Back to Home

God & Science Forum Message

Forums: Atm · Astrophotography · Blackholes · Blackholes2 · CCD · Celestron · Domes · Education
Eyepieces · Meade · Misc. · God and Science · SETI · Software · UFO · XEphem
RSS Button

Home | Discussion Forums | God and Science | Post
Login

Be the first pioneers to continue the Astronomy Discussions at our new Astronomy meeting place...
The Space and Astronomy Agora
Sorry In Advance For The Epic

Forum List | Follow Ups | Post Message | Back to Thread Topics | In Response To
Posted by Murat Bilginer on February 21, 2003 10:23:37 UTC

first off, let me start by saying i dont speak arabic and im definitely not a scholar. ive read a few translations and had spoken to a couple of imams and followers who did speak arabic and over time, more casually and out of curiosity, rather than any focused intent until just during this past ramadan, i read a translation of quran cover to cover and took notes as i went, and spent time thinking about it.
now, im not positive why its compiled the way it was, as no one of any scripture can be. as far as i know, it was not written down into an official text until immediately after the passing of the prophet peace be upon him. the word quran supposedly means "recitation" in arabic. the prophet at the time would receive it from the lord in prayer and recite it to his followers who remembered each verse by word and "recitation"(how to recite it). he actually forbid it to be written down until after his passing, as everyone around him was to know it by heart. one of the "powers" of quran is "how" it is recited. there are certain marks and accents and other verbal cues attached to the letters, the letters which at the time were also used as numbers. each verse has a particular method of recitation, some vowels and sounds elongated and others cut short and so forth. (actually, sometime soon i would like to get an accurate "tafseer" (spoken recital) digitally map out the relative frequencies and try and see if there are any distinguishable patterns, if how it recited is important, there might be some psychological or so forth, significance to it).
the order in which it was recorded is different than the order it was revealed to prophet mohammed, as he gave specific intructions of how to have it written down after his passing. he would constantly test his numerous followers and correct them to ensure they would preserve it accurately as mohammed believed that all previous scripture had been subject to innovation and manipulation by cultures, "interest groups", clergies and so forth. he believed the quran would be no different if he did not ensure it was preserved and he did not want written copies being distributed around before enough people knew it by heart, subject to his immediate authority. (note: many scholars believe that hadith and sunnah are subject to thistype of innovation, further there is no mention of the need of any other book in quran, many scholars believe that all significant discrepencies within the widespread practice of islam can be traced diirectly to the transliteration of hadith[alleged sayings/manner of muhammed written about 300 years after prophet's death] and sunnah but ive never read them)
muhammed left instructions to his most trusted of how to physically compile and organize the text and passed on, may peace be upon him.

****in answer to your questions of the repitition, i can only give you its impact on me. idol worship/non-belief, belief and pure faith in "allah" literally "the lord"(one and only lord), prayer, charity are amongst the more repetitive ideas in the quran. it would seem to me, that contextually as well as generally these ideas are of utmost importance and prerequisite for peace here and in the hereafter. therefore their inclusion throughout and possibly even their contextual reference as per the sura(chapter) have some significance. further, some verses start with the command: "SAY". this seems to me a prayer, this is a verse that one would recite as prayer to the lord. other verses are more story and moral and others are commands, like "dont do this" or "you must do this" type of stuff. as for the possibility of the 7 interprations of the ideas,this is possible, but im sorry to say ireally dont know, sorry****

within the various levels of interpretation, there is allegedly a level for all minds, as anyone can understand and anyone can be challenged. the simplest is obviously the straightforward adherence to the commands, this is considered the most basic form of submission. there is contextual interpretation as well and allegorical, some believe there is a mathematical possibly having to do with the number 19 (but i dont know ive never tried to resolve that). in essence, what i get from reading the quran is a straight forward guide for different levels of thought and action, reserving all the fundamentals of abrahamic faith as far as ive been exposed to it.

as far as i could remember, i was always very inquisitive and i would not accept generic or preformulated answers to my questions. being honest, i must say, how i was exposed to islam in my childhood actually inhibited my true faith, because i was only believing in words and commands as demanded by my parents. but as i started to inquire on my own, i realized much of what i "truly believed" was represented in it. ive been fasting since i was a child, and believe me, ive learned something new, or reinforced what ive already learned every year, from my 13 year old revelation of the difference between hunger and appetite (bio vs. psych), self control, empathy, or more accurately sympathy, and so on to my most recent.

my gratitude for your patience to whomever got this far (haha). now, as for idol worship, i believe this is the greatest obstruction to true faith. i was a student and employee of marketing /advertising between 5 to 6 years. ironically enough had an aptitude for it. but the more i learned, the more i realized something was strangely, if i may say, evil about it. it seemed to me a system of methods to confound people and take from them their most important thing, their sense of logic as a way of controlling them. popular culture itself is a methodology of this. idol worship as well. as i said, i was always a believer, i just never knew it because of the mythic and paganistic way all religion is represented popularly. then, most recently, from reading the quran i had realized how truly steeped in idol worship western culture truly was. its evident on our money "in god(king/angel/'star') we trust" with a picture of an ancestoral icon, our celebrity 'icons', 'idols', 'royalty', 'celebrity', 'stars' subverting responsible or sensible authority telling children(as well as adults) what to like, want, love and pursue, the use of 'magic' to twist the true notions of belief and the promotion of sinful impulses "lust, greed, envy, aggression, etc.' underlying or most recently actually being celebrated in all mass/popular media. and truly from my deepest and most humble part of my heart i mean no offense to true christian believer or jewish beievers (worship from the old and new testament) as i have good friends with whom i share mutual respect. i believe that these books are from the lord and are valid, yet talmudic and pagan tradition and even non-belief has found its way into the popular practice, inclusive of ideas as easter, christmas, worship of saints/prophets, automatic or exclusion of personal salvation regardless of adherence to scriptural ethics. i would even cite for you the practice/acceptance of imperialism, clergy, use of text outside of quran and un-islamic tradition in so-called islamic nations. never forget that although there is more to be learned in scripture than just socially responsible behavior, its main purpose and most important facet is just that. as long as society maintains a responsible and workable framework what we do after that will find its own equilibrium. all discovery, industry and all knowledge is still available without war, perversion, corruption, slavery and so on. this belief that war, imperialism and fanaticism is a major and necessary component of "human progress" is completely false. i would cite that most major discovery, although utilized and funded by war mongers, kings and fanatics, was made by peaceful rational and dare i say it, "believing" people with "faith" in the unseen. after all,scientists, as per their ideology, are amongst the most religious and faithful in belief of an eternal yet unseen primacy, this is the motivation of all responsible research.

now i dont claim that everything i say is what the quran tries to say or impart, rather that what was imparted to me from my own experiences and research. furthermore i do not wish to imply that this is the popular opinion in islam, there are a lot of resources one can turn to gain more perspective. but utlimately, only the quran and an honest and willing heart can be your guide. the truth can be found everywhere, but in a willing mind. there is a downloadable and searchable quran database i got from submission.org (but not *.com* as this is a porn site haha)

my take on scripture is a very difficult thing for me to comprehensively express and expound upon in writing without ending up writing a novel, i usually prefer to discuss face to face, and cleverly enough, i believe one of motivations of the cryptic nature of all scripture is to do just that, bring people together with strict conduct to discuss their deepest most convictions. this is what we do and everytime i recieve a reply or reply myself to a message here, i remember that one of the most beautiful gifts given to humanity by the truth, the lord is our ability to share and grow together. hows that for romantic.

once again sorry for the run-on, but a hub is not evident but for the spokes. and i left alot of spokes out. peace

Follow Ups:

    Login to Post
    Additional Information
    Google
     
    Web www.astronomy.net
    DayNightLine
    About Astronomy Net | Advertise on Astronomy Net | Contact & Comments | Privacy Policy
    Unless otherwise specified, web site content Copyright 1994-2022 John Huggins All Rights Reserved
    Forum posts are Copyright their authors as specified in the heading above the post.
    "dbHTML," "AstroGuide," "ASTRONOMY.NET" & "VA.NET"
    are trademarks of John Huggins