: : ***I think that the word "creation" cannot even be used when describing the universe as a whole. : : There is no evidence that gives any value to any theory in which matter has not always exsisted in some form (energy included). Thus, rearrangement of what exists is the only logical conclusion at this point of the continuos present (presence). : : There is also no evidence to support that the universe is a closed system (has an end or limit) : : thus, we must recognize that most of our perceptions (even in science) are biased by the closed environment we live within, (our body/the earth/solar system/galaxy/known universe/big bang) : : So I guess I should allow myself the label of, um, : : Rearrangementist, or cyclist? Anyone have a better label to fit this kind of thinking? : -------------- : Definition of evolution in its broadest sense is simply change. This definition need not apply strictly to biology. Thus the evolutionist believes that certain aspects of reality such as matter (which is simply a manifestation of energy, E=mc2) may have always existed, but are expressing themselves in different forms. : Absolutely, It's certainly a possibility that the universe has always existed... in one form or another.