: bzrd here: In the absence of matter, time and space do not exist. Why can't the universe be self-caused? Because [in your words]the causal law does not apply. Again, it is ironic, [perhaps even apropos?] that the materialist philosophy is reducible to faith in "nothing"..... : ----------- : I don't see what you mean here. If the causal law doesn't apply, anything is fair game. Cause and effect relationships are absent, thus I see no reason why the universe could not come into being all by itself. : There is just as much faith (if not more, because of parsimony) in God creating the universe than in the universe coming into being by itself.

bzrd here: Matter coming into existance with out cause can be classified as a super-natural event as there is no known mechanism by which creation "ex nihilo" is possible. Given that God is a spiritual being, and cause/effect is a consequence of space-time and matter, cause is not a prerequisite for His existance.

• Is a mechanism really necessary? - tenacious - December 10, 1999 - 14:53 UTC