: Well, what exactly is a real christain? : I've never sensed God, and I'm convinced that if he was real, the world wouldn't be like this. I don't pretend to know all the answers, but why would God keep knowledge out of our reach? Is he afraid we'll learn the truth? : In the garden of eden, God punished humans for the pursuit of knowledge? Would you rather know good and evil, or be obsequious yes men to God? I can't imagine a God that you describe would want that. If it's within God's power to rectify the ills of this world, what's he waiting for? All the evils that exist in this can't be attributed entirely to free will.

: As far as atheists being rebels against God, that's clearly a Christain point of view. I don't associate the devil with science. : : Didn't get a chance to finish, but out of sheer impatience hit the submit button anyway.

: If God is the compassionate all powerful deity you claim he is, then he wouldn't have need for Christian evangelists trying to convert those gone astray as you put it. Nothing could be beyond his ability, certainly not convincing a mere atheist such as myself. His presence would be felt in every human heart, and his existence would be undeniable. I however, have found that God doesn't convince people. People convince people; that's it.

: Furthermore, You still haven't answered my question of being mislead. Let's say hypothetically, that satan created science so that humans would deny God's existence. Let's say that I, being the gullible atheist, falls for this elaborate plan, and being guided by my own false reasoning, came to the conclusion that "I don't think the God you describe could exist in a world like this." Would God then become so enraged and petty that he would hold this against me? Not only would I die, but be sent to Hell (you've said it). Yours seems to be a God of contradictions, more consistent with a human concept than what God really is (if one exists). It seems to me that a God of love wouldn't care what we think, as long as we try to better the world in some way, or love and coexist with each other and nature. That's the central idea of Christianity, I agree, that it's love. I've adopted that into my humanist philosophy, even if I deny the existence of God.

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:Earl here: Ok, but you're leaving out the the main reason that things are not like you or I or God wants them to be , for that matter, on the earth right now. That won't take place until the whole world is judged and all evil and unrighteousness and unbelief is done away with in the lake of fire. Then there will be a new heaven and new earth made that will not be infested with sin. It was sin that caused all of this chaos we see on the earth, where the crooked ways cannot be made straight until Christ comes and separates the wheat from the tares. When Jesus left he told US to go into all the world and preach the gospel of salvation, we are here in his behalf, he gave us the power of attorney to be a light to the world in his behalf until he returns. God use men to write the scriptures, to work miracles, to deliver nations, to judge nations, to rule the earth, and God is still using men to win men, and using men to help men. Every time I've been in trouble God sent a man to help, a christian brother out of the blue and come right up to me and tell me what God told them to tell me. God has sent men to pray for people sick and they've been healed. God has sent prophets and christian men to warn someone of impending doom, or death, so that they would have a chance to get saved before they die, or save them from death altogether for a while. God told us to shout out the warning to the world that the end is coming and that Christ is coming back and that judgement is coming on the earth, if we don't warn them God requires their blood on our hands. Why God has chosen this way, or why he chose to come and die for us has caused the proud, rebellious, arrogant, and self righteous to stumble, Jesus said unless we come to Him as a little child we can in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. We have to accept Him as a little child would accept his own parent. God is our parent, our Father, he said he has no pleasure in a soul that dies and goes to hell, He says He would rather that they turn from their wickedness and unbelief and get saved and enter into life, after all He sent His son so that we could. He didn't have to do that, guess he does love us. He's sending evangelists and missionaries all over the world all the time to proclaim the gospel. Jesus told us we'd be hated, he said the servant is not above his Lord, if they hated him they'll hate us. People have been so misled as to what Christianity really is, they don't know that all we are are pilgrims passing thru to a better place, a better land, where there is no more sorrow, no dieing, no pain, and where Christ dwells, you see God has got His people all over the world in every tongue, every nation and one day we'll rule and reign with Christ on this earth for a thousand years after His return..then Satan and his followers are cast into the lake of fire and all evil and sin is done away with forever..once and for all. He's preparing us here for eternity, to be as angels of God, having known good and evil, we will not fall like Satan did, because God created him perfect with great power to rule the planets in this system, but his heart was lifted up with pride, and when the angels began praising him he took it to heart and did not give God the praise in return, but began to be a murderer and liar and deceiver because of his beauty and power. He thought himself to be stronger and more powerful than God, so he said I will ascend above the clouds and make my throne above Gods throne, after all I deserve it, who is like me in all of the universe? And he recruited a third of his angelic followers to make the attack to overthrow God on His throne, but God being Almighty and All powerful had to sorrowfully cast him and his followers out of heaven to this atmosphere, then made a place inside the earth called hell for lucifer whose name was changed to satan after the fall because he was considered a deceiver. The other planets in this solar system were broken up and great comets and asteroids were created because some of the planets exploded into thousands of pieces the battle was so fierce and Gods anger, tho sorrowful, had to issue judgement on this solar system that Satan ruled, the other solar systems have not been affected because their angelic rulers have not fallen or sinned, they continue to report to God as usual, even tho satan appears there too for now until his place will be taken away alltogether when he is sent for good to this earth in the end of days before Christ comes back. The catastrophy was so great the only planet left inhabitable was earth because that is where satans central throne was in atlantis near the burmuda triangle. Compasses still point to the true north when satan is near that area even now. The true north is where heaven is. Not the north pole. The earth was covered with water and all light was shut down in this section of the universe, we don't know how long. But, in Genesis we pick up with re-creation of only the earth and man was created for the first time in all of history. He was made a little lower than the angels, he glowed with an aura about him that covered his nakedness, and also, was holy and pure, and walked and talked with God one on one in the Garden of Eden, and did well, until he became lonely for a help mate, thats when God made a woman from his rib and brought her to him and he said bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh thus shall a man leave his father and mother and shall cleave to his wife. And called her woman because she was taken from man. Satan was there in the Garden, upset because he was cast out and de-powered and dethroned. He watched the woman and man, and knew if he could eventually get one of them to fall he might have a chance to rule again, he knew if he could get one of them to sin, that that would separate them from God like he was separated from God because he sinned, so he made a plan..get the woman to taste of the forbidden fruit, cast doubt in her mind that God was as good as they thought he was and make her think that God was withholding something good from them...he said you shall not surely die if you eat, but you will become like gods, knowing good and evil...when God said you shall surely die he not only meant it spiritually but physically as well...satan knew this...he deceived them and when they ate the aura around them suddenly vanished they realized they were naked and hid themselves when God came walking into the garden...but God had the alternate plan already thought up because He knew they would probably fall anyway...and thus His master plan would come eveident to the universe as a whole that He is not a tyrant God like satan accused him of, that His way is the better way, and that there is only ONE true God in all the universe, Him....So he began His plan from Noah on down came the lineage of a Messiah that was to come and destroy the works of the devil who now had rule again over the earth even until this day, if God ruled it, there would be no death, sorrow, starving, poverty, suffering, Jesus had to come to go into hell and defeat satan on his own ground ..on his own turf and take away the title of morning star and the keys of death, hell and the grave...from satan who ruled also the underworld...the 2000 years since Christ have been years of missionary, preaching, healing, praying, thousands have been saved, God is building is race of angels again, only we will have knowledge of what happened, why the fall, God doesn't want it to happen again, He's insuring that it won't with the remembrance of all those things, the evil, the murders, the lying, the unbelief, the sorrow, the death, all by the smoke of their torment rising up for eternity from the lake of fire not only to hold evil in it forever, a type of memorial before God and the saints, and the angels. This catastrophe must never happen again, too much pain, too much sorrow, too much death, too much suffering has taken place because of it. Hell was never created for human souls but was used for that because man fell .

• God sends men to pray for his help, so that he can later help them? Why? - tenacious - December 6, 1999 - 20:34 UTC