: Salutations, : Atheist argument #0021. I assume that the traditional definition of God (all good, all powerful, all knowing) applies. I'll also assume that free will exists.

: Ever thought to think why evil exists in the world? I'm sure you all have considered this. It seems to me, that theists are forced to reconcile the existence of evil with that of a loving and caring God. Many have tried by appealing to free will. But this is insuffient. The existence of free will doesn't explain all the non-human caused evils that exist: earth quakes, famines due to poor crops, diseases, etc. There are many problems that not caused by humans. : Consider this example. : Think of a man that died in his apartment building because lightning hit the house and burned him to death. The man dies a slow and painful death due to smoke inhalation and and 3rd degree burns. The man is deemed clinically dead 3 days later in the hospital. : How could God have allowed this to happen to his "beloved child?" Being God, we know that he could have prevented it because he both knew about it prior to its occurance and had the power of preventing it. In this case it won't do to say now that the man has endured such enormous suffering, that now he'll go to heaven. Either the suffering was necessary or it wasn't. If it wasn't necessary to undergo the suffering, then it wrong for the man to experience it (ie. God could have simply sent the man to heaven without the suffering because he's all powerful).

: Now, there are several ways to attack this argument. It is possible to deny that God is all powerful. However, it's unlikely that this would be effective, seeing as the fire department, and medical doctors (if they reached the man in time) could have saved the day. Could God, who was powerful enough to create the universe be conveniently less powerful than the fire department and doctors? A god should at the very least be as powerful as a man. Second, you could deny that God is all knowing. This implies that God would have saved the man if he'd only knew, but again this argument runs into the same problem. Is God so detached from human affairs that he doesn't know when we need him? This renders the act of praying usless (except for theraputic or meditative reasons). Third, you might deny that God is all good. In this case you encounter the idea that God isn't perfect, but is flawed just as man is. It's now possible that God actually inflicted the suffering out his own sadistic enjoyment, or toys with humans for the twisted pleasure of it. This also wouldn't be inconsistent with the idea of sending sinners to an eternity of hell. But most theists would not find comfort in such a God.

: Finally, if everything in the universe was created by God, then God is the ultimate cause of all evil. God created Satan, he created disease, earth quakes, etc. : The idea of free will now becomes irrelevant. God could have created a bunch of people that were saints, that were always inclined to do good regardless of temptation, but instead he created sinners (or people that were flawed enough to become sinners - adam and eve). Does a sinner somehow have more free will than a saint? : Does one punish the flawed creation, or criticise it's maker?

Beelzebub: A God must be all powerful and all good, otherwies he is not a God (in my opinion all powerful and all knowing is the same, that's why I say only all powerful)! That is a great contradiction when you see all the suffering on earth, because an all good person must help and an all powerful person can help. So, why does God not help? The answer is: It's too late and it's not necessary! When God has created the universe he did it not for fun. His goal was it to create the paradise. When he created the universe he knew already what would happen, because he is all mighty. He can see every second of the future, and he created the universe in such a manner that all will happen that is necessary to reach the final condition. (God will never manifest, because that would mean that he has made an error when he created the universe.) Nobody has a free will! All what happens, all what we do, all what we think, is a consequence of the first moment. God swiched the machine on and now it runs. We go through pain and joy...and at the end we will stay into the true light. (Would someone have a free will then God would not be all knowing and all powerful - then he would not be a God.) But why let's an all good God us suffer so much? He let's us not suffer! He has chosen the best way to reach the final level. What we will get at the end will compensates for all. We must go through the dark to really understand the blissfulness. Pain is not only bad, it has also a good side! The dosed suffering prepares us for the light. When the heavenly light will penetrate the formed souls, then the Miracle is done. Only a soul which knows the darkness (pain) can really enjoy the light! But why must we go this long way? God has the power to push us immediately into the paradise. Yeah, that's a little problem. There are two solution: 1. The way is not so long, it seems to be, because our souls stick in mortal bodies. For God it's only a second but for us it's an half eternity. 2. Our souls are more then usual matter. Even when God can do all he wants, we are something special (perhaps we are much more than we believe). To prepare such high-leveled creatures needs some time. God is so interested in us, because we are great!

• Sure - Froztwolf - October 14, 1999 - 13:26 UTC
  • Re: Sure - Beelzebub - October 14, 1999 - 19:14 UTC