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 Be the first pioneers to continue the Astronomy Discussions at our new Astronomy meeting place...The Space and Astronomy Agora Re: Einstein's Math & Space-time Forum List | Follow Ups | Post Message | Back to Thread Topics | In Response ToPosted by Wayne/">Wayne on November 15, 1999 17:19:24 UTC

: It is that difference, however, that in my mind requires that we seperate SPACE from TIME. They are not one in the same.

: Allow me to argue by counter-example.

Yelmalio: If time is seperate then it moves/flows seperately.

Wayne: Time doesn't move or flow. It is mearly a yardstick that we use to describe the changes in relationships between universal bodies. Earth's orbit around the sun will require 365 days 6 hours to complete no matter where the observer may be watching from. An observer in a far off galaxy may define the span of time 96.001 gimlets but it will be = to 365 days 6 hours.

Yelmalio: How does it move for different observors, the same or at different speeds. If it moves at different speeds then we have no way of knowing that. This leads to the conclusion, also, that there are boundaries at which time moves differently. This means that all observors have a unique viewpoint and the laws of physics are different in different parts of the Universe. This gets you nowhere fast.

Wayne: As I said above, it doesn't move it describes how much movement has taken place through a given span of space relative (I love that word) to a given set of bodies. As to the last part of your statement, I agree. I believe the laws of physics are uniform throughout the universe, and do not breakdown, change, or fail.

Yelmalio: If time moves at the same speed for everyone then we have the Newtonian laws of Physics to play with. There is a major problem here. The laws of Electro-Magnetism as formulated by Maxwell do not work in a Newtonian Universe with all clocks identical. If you transform Maxwells equations via a Galilean transform (where time is absolute) you get a meaningless result. This was the first, famous problem found with the Newtonian model and has been well thrashed out in past.

Wayne: I'll have to read up on this. I don't know much about it, but it looks like we are still working from the premis of TIME in motion, rather than bodies in motion.

Yelmalio: Only by assuming space and time are the same (spacetime) and applying Lorentz transforms and its predictons(time slows down, length contracts etc) does the problem go away.

Wayne: It has been my experience that the use of words like always, never, and ONLY turn out to be wrong. "There's more than one way to skin a cat."

Yelmalio: Also, you have to explain why Mu-Mesons (muons) are observed at the Earths surface when their half-lives are so short they decay before reaching the Earth from where they are created in the magnetosphere. You also have to explain why particles accelerated to near light speed show an energy increase in accordance to E=mc2 as predicted by Einstein. You then have to explain gravitational red-shifting (as observed in lasers fired down a gravitational gradient), paths of starlight being bent by the Suns gravitational field, precession of Mercuries orbit and a host of other observations agreeing with Relativity and its underlying concept that space and time are interlinked as spacetime.

Wayne: As I tryed to impress in the statement that started this; I believe Einstein's math needs refining.

Yelmalio: The problem s that what we think of as time is not what time really is. A biological measure of time does not provide a meaningful reference that can be used to define it well enough in order to make predictions of behaviour.

Wayne: A biological measure of time will be the same as a universal measure. Blood in my body will flow at a rate that can be compared to the distance the earth has rotated, or moved on its orbital path, in the same span of time. Time is like my tape measure. When I need to pick it up and use it, I find the hash marks are always the same distance apart, but the studs are not always on sixteen inch centers. Getting all these bugs out of the verious theories is what will lead to a unified theory and I agree with Hawking. It can be done.