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Goodbye Harv - You Have My Prayers

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Posted by Eric Clark on November 3, 2003 13:38:02 UTC

Combined post for :

Stop, look, and listen
God’s word is infinitely more powerful than a locomotive.
If you will pay this careful heed to a train coming down a railroad track,
should you not heed the word of God all the more ?

Will the truth seemingly hurt a brother in error ? Yes, seemingly.
Should it then be refrained ? Only if you hate your brother.
I pray you take this post in that light.

Are you a born gain believer or a humanist ?
Again. ignore the thrust of this reply if you are not endwelt by the Holy Spirit.

I am presuming you to be a born again believer who has allowed himself to
believe humanistic beliefs without the leading of the Holy Spirit.
By their fruit ye shall know them.

Harv, forgive the frankness, but truth does not try to hide.
Those who would change the word of God into a lie into order to sell Christianity as
a religion handle the word of God deceitfully. Are you trying to sell a religion ?
I’m not buying any. You want to tell the world about a personal relationship with
the only One that can save, go ahead. I will praise you for that.
If a man says parts of the word of God are not the word of God when they are,
has that man has taken away from God’s word ? Does God have anything to say about that ?

When is eternal life, not eternal life ?
When God takes away your part out of the book of life. (Revelation 22:19)

Begin excerpts from --

RE:>> * [ I Samuel 15 is part of basic Christian doctrine.]
If you really believe so, then you are not a Christian. I say that honestly and with all frankness. *
OK, I am not your kind of Christian, I would likely agree.
I have no goals set to become any man’s kind of Christian.

RE:>> * Now, Jesus could have said, … *
Do you want to concentrate on what He could have said or on what He did say ?

RE:>> * I'm sorry, but this is how I see it. *
I agree. You see by sight and will be sorry.

RE:>> * I told you, the Logos is Christ, and Christ is the Logos. The Trinity refers to the entire nature of God which the Logos is a member of that nature.
Logos ? A member ? According to whose Bible ?

RE:>> * I know this is a step you cannot take, but I would look for you to condemn I Sam. 15. *
Amen. I thank my God for keeping watch over my steps.

RE:>> * Your inability to condemn it makes me believe that … *
Do not think that I cannot error and sin. I have condemned wrongfully before.

RE:>> * you see God as a Suddam Hussein character, versus the God of love that Christianity holds dear. *
Christianity holds dear ? Can a “religion” hold something dear ?
No. I hold dear to my relationship with my Saviour and His love toward all men.

RE:>> * C'mon Eric. How can you reconcile this view of God with I Sam. 15, are you saying that God is kinder to birds than to human beings: *
Though you still phrase it according to your own knowledge,
does this mean you are still open to hearing ?
Do you know how many “infant” bodies will die upon the Lord’s return ?
Or do you not believe in His return (as King) ?
Armageddon is not just a made for TV movie.
Do you know what one of the pictures(pattern) is in I Samual 15 ?
It is a pattern showing that a Christian must remove ALL sin from their lives to prevent future contamination. ALL sin. From the greatest to least little.
I pray you strive to follow this pattern. Pride can blind us to sin. The least little pride will blind us to the least little sin. ( Infants grow up to be full grown in time. )

RE:>> * Bottomline, I Sam. 15 is not compatible with Christian teaching, and like Col.2 suggests, we are to see such teachings as human * […]
No. Bottomline, I Sam. 15 is ABSOLUTELY compatible with Christian teaching, and like the Book suggests, we are to see such rejection of His teachings as humanistic and self-willed.

RE:>> * I still cannot believe that you lack this very basic understanding and still defend an indefensible command. You do so because you lack a proper biblical understanding of scripture, this is why you are blinded. *
Oh, draw out the mote, my dear friend. Please review your exegesis that follows…

Begin excerpts from --

RE:>> * I try to get through to you the very basics of Christian teaching as relayed from the words of Jesus *
My friend, there is only One basic. (John 3:7)
The opposite side of this basic looks like hell. (Matthew 12:31)
“YOU” will try to get through to me ?
Do you not understand Who is the only One that can get through to anyone ?
I pray He gets through to you.

RE:>> * you cling to words that are in direct opposition to Christianity as described by the Savior and the lead writing apostle. *
No. I cling to the very words of God as described by my Saviour and Lord..

RE:>> * Okay, let me try and answer your most basic questions. *
I don’t recall asking any basic questions - yet profane and vain babblings persist.

RE:>> * I cannot make you believe that Christian doctrine is critical of actions supposedly spoken by God *
I agree, but why are you trying ? We are already in agreement.
I do ALREADY believe that Christian doctrine is critical of many actions that are SUPPOSEDLY spoken by God.
Didn’t God supposedly speak to you about I Samuel 15 ?

Why debate the Bible if you don’t believe it is the Word of God ?
Okay, let's begin here. This is somewhat elementary for a Christian, but since you obviously don't know this, I will teach you. *
“YOU” will teach ? James 3:1
I pray for you, but you should pray about this very hard and be certain that God responds.
He will NOT respond as a human spirit does, so be sure it is Him. (I John 4:1-4)
I pray often for His direction in the matter of teaching,
asking Him to remove this burden of responsibility or
to give me strength and wisdom that all will bring honour and glory to Him.
If we speak when He has not told us to speak. Woe unto us.
If we fail to speak when He has told us to speak. Woe unto us.
Speak or not speak ? Have you asked Him ? Did you wait and listen for His reply ?
My friend, I do not want you to head into any Woe, now or at the judgment to come ...
May His Spirit speak clearly to you. Amen.

RE:>> * The actual 'Word of God' is the Logos who in the fullness of flesh is Jesus. *
human spirit. humanism. Any relation ? Yes a man that speaks after the human spirit rather than the Holy Spirit is following the path of humanism.
Harv, outside of your concocted reality, you do not get to pick what you want God to be.
This is called “humanism”. Man telling God who He is. Man telling man how to act,
not admitting that it is God (word of God) alone who is sovereign in these matters.
Enjoy while you can. Live it up brother. Eat, drink, and make merry, my man.
Yes, men would like to give God input on how He should run His government.
God has not set up a perfect democracy where each man gets one vote.
No, my friend. He has set up a Kingdom. Do you know how a Kingdom functions ?
A servant that will not obey is considered a wicked servant.
Do you know what the Lord has said about wicked servants ?
I’m not saying “He” doesn’t love “you”, I’m saying that if “you” love “Him”, you will desire to obey His every thought.

RE:>> * Acts 4:31 "And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness."
* The word of God comes with being filled with the Holy Spirit *
Teacher, doesn’t the context indicate the word of God that had already been given to them and the “spoke” refers to repeating the already revealed word they had received ?

Acts 6:11 "Then they secretly induced men to say, "We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses and God."
* These words that were spread by the disciples were known as blasphemous to Moses' words and God's words. That is, they directly contradicted the dipiction of God and God's words as written in the Hebrew Bible. *
Teacher, were blasphemous words really spread by the disciples, or did certain men of the synagogue induce other men to “say falsely” that Stephen(a disciple) spoke words blasphemous to Moses ?
(v11) “they” being “(v9) certain of the synagogue”, not the disciples.
(v11)“suborned men, which said”, not the disciples.

Teacher, what was the context of these actions ? Why did certain of the synagogue induce men to say that the disciples spoke blasphemously against Moses ? Should we look at verse 10 ? Or should we just believe what you say, Teacher ?
Teacher, I pray you rid the pride from your eyes that you may come to know the one true God in the fullness of relationship that He desires with each one of us.
If a man cannot drop pride before men, can he before God ?
Have you not added to His word ? Or is this JUST a false teaching ?

RE:>> * Acts 12:24 "But the word of God grew and multiplied."
* The word of God is fluid and grows. *
Do you see anything that makes sense about this following commentary in relation to this verse in the book of Acts ?
Commentary -- But the [knowledge of and about] word of God grew[spread] and multiplied[spread widely].

This is not a commentary => and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.
Teacher, who is the “he” ?
I cease not to pray for you Harvey.

Acts 13:46 “Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.”

RE:>> * [Acts 13:46] The believers of the Hebrew Bible, were the first to hear the word of God from the apostles, but rejected it, so Paul and Barnabas reached out to the Gentile world. Note: they did not hear the word of God prior to it being preached by them. *

Correct at last ! Yes, the believers(Jews) of the Hebrew Bible(Word of God), were the first to hear the word of God(Hebrew Bible) FROM THE APOSTLES.
The APOSTLES expounded everlasting life through Jesus from the Word of God(Hebrew Bible). Was the New Testament later written ? Yes.
Teacher, can you describe how Acts 8:28-35 plainly tells us this ?

RE:>> * Acts 15:7 "And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe."
* The word of God is identified as the word of the gospel of Christ. *
The gospel of Christ is in the volume of the Book(KJV). Both, Old AND New testaments now.

* The word of God is identified as the word of God's grace (key word: GRACE).
* The word of God is identified as the word of reconciliation with God.
* The word of God is identified as the word of truth, and needs to be judged properly by the man of God. *

I think you left out quite a few more identifications, but importantly you left out that “scripture” is the “written” word of God. key word: LEFT OUT
(or is the key word “diminish ought from it” instead? - Deuteronomy 4:2)
See II Peter 1:19-21 and look for the word “scripture”.
By the way, the very next verses, II Peter 2:1-22, may well speak to you by comparing Deuteronomy 4:2 and Revelation 22:19 to this same passage.

RE:>> * The word of God is living, that is, it changes, it is fluid, it goes through stages of development all the while it is working in the hearts of men convicting and proding. *
“stages of development” ? No, my friend. He is complete and ALWAYS has been.
Did He “reveal” His written word in “stages” ?
Answer: Does He know how to teach unlearned man ?
Stages of “revelation”, not stages of “development”.
Does God’s word ever change ? In reality ? No.
Do some men change it into a lie ? You bet - I see them almost every day. Harv.
( But it is not the Word that changes, just a lie that makes it appear to change. )

RE:>> * The Word of God is something that is in the Christian, it is not a book. *
It is both, my friend. It is all and in all and all things were made by Him, Jesus, the living Word. Yes, it IS also in book form. May the light of God shine in your heart to the acknowledging of the truth.
Pray about these scriptures : Job 19:23, Isaiah 30:8, Jeremiah 30:2, Revelation 1:11,
and importantly, II Peter 1:19-21.

RE:>> * Jesus is the Word of God. *
Amen. And I am in the Word of God.
Finally another point of agreement.

RE:>> * And, your house is not clean. *
Go ahead, name my sin !
* You do not speak for God when you suggest that God is one to have all children and animals killed by a military machine. *
I do not suggest it. I repeat God’s word in truth.
But I do also speak for God when I suggest that I Samuel 15 is the word of God.
Nay, more than suggest. Declare.
My sin ? Is it hard to give it a name or is it you just can’t speak against the truth ?

RE:>> * It is as though you do not really believe in the word of God as revealed to his apostles and spoken by Jesus himself. *
You are easily deceived by appearances it would seem.
Those who have sin in their lives (ongoing and unconfessed) and those who cannot discern the Holy Spirit from all else fall prey to this rather quickly in my experience.
You are one to say, “not really believe in the word of God”, when, indeed, you seem to be admittedly among those who are slow of heart to believe ALL that the PROPHETS have spoken.
(Luke 24:25 -- II Peter 1:21)
When will you find a faithful man that will rightly divide the word of truth ?
Answer: When you swallow your pride before men and God.

RE:>> * By advocating the evil depiction of God as a slaughterer of innocents, you are not holding fast to anything that is good in this situation. *
False accuser ? I do not advocate the evil depiction of God.
Oh, slow of heart to believe ALL that the prophets have spoken.
(Luke 24:25 -- II Peter 1:21)

RE: *
We are back to it – How do YOU determine what God’s words are ? Be very careful in your answer, my friend.

If I have told you the truth, then you are convicting God of lying. Shouldn’t we concentrate on what the Bible says rather than what our own behaviour is ? Do we kill the messenger because the message offends us ?

Concentrate what the word of God says *
You say “Concentrate on what the word of God says” ?
Need I repeat ? How do YOU determine what God’s words are ?
Is this not my second admonition to you on this heretical matter ?

RE:>> * If you insist on maintaining that the Hebrew scriptures were a revelation of God's true nature, then you are not understanding the identity of God as revealed by Jesus Christ. I can't be any more clear than this. *

You seem to continually ascribe insistence and actions to me which are only half truths.
Yes, the Hebrew scriptures were a “stage” of revelation of God’s true nature.
This does not discount that I Samuel 15 helps to partially reveal an aspect of His true nature.
You can’t be more clear ?
You have never described His holiness aspect have you ?

Colossians 2:13-15 “And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;”
RE:>> * This talks about the complete cancellation of the written code that was directly attributed to God. *

Please explain (to your self first) your interpretation of “ordinances” as in your quote of “written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us”.
I think your own study (under the Holy Spirit) in this area may bring you light.

RE:>> * There is no attributing these words as direct words from God as in Deuteronomy 5:28-30. *
I say that the whole Book (Old and New testaments) is against me. ( And it is. )
Does that mean there is no attributing ANY of its words as direct words from God ?
Nay, rather, it is clear, that ALL of the scripture is direct from God through inspiration and is good in our support of doctrine from God. (II Timothy 3:16)
The fact that a man does not understand God’s word at first, does not make it fit to be trodden as some(you?) have done. Be not deceived, you will be held accountable, not here and now by men only(me for one), but by the One who desires that you not suffer loss of eternal treasure. Yet eternal loss will come at that day for whose who have taken the broad path. I have shown you there is a narrow way, yet you are blind to it. I pray for those whom you have “tried to teach” about the Christian faith. Oh, I pray they do not let the blind lead the blind. ( How many souls have you won to Christ ? - rhetorical, but important question to ask yourself )

RE:>> * How simple do you want it? Must I teach you the very basics of Christianity? *
Yes, teacher. Please teach me all your wisdom and truth from the simplest to the greatest.
Are we to continue to listen to men in error ? Titus 3:10
My friend, we are done conversing(in fellowship) for now, but I do pray for you and will continue to pray for you though I leave you to your own desires to teach these things. (James 3:1).

RE:>> * You should feel ashamed that you don't know the things I speak. This should embarrass you! *
Nay. I am never ashamed or embarrassed of not knowing error,
and I am never ashamed of the gospel, which is in the volume of the book.

RE:>> * How do you respond to it? With denial, or with acceptance? *
Titus 3:1 has your answer until you come to accept the whole counsel of God.
But I pray you know that I do love you and may even be reconciled with you one day on this earth. This is not for me to know.

Harv, in the Christian life, there will ALWAYS be things in the Word of God that you do not understand. This is where our Trust in God takes priority over our desire to know.
Yes, there will ALWAYS be things in the Word of God that you do not understand.
This goes for EVERYONE. If ANYONE tells you otherwise, they are a liar.
The knowledge and understanding that comes from His Word is never ending and bottomless.
You do believe that many things about God and many things of God are bottomless, right ?
His love, His mercy, His grace.
His Wisdom, His Power, His Might, His Blessing, and His Word.
Yes, His Word, through finite words are able to grow fruit for all eternity.

Harv, God does not expect “blind” faith from you in ANYTHING.
He does expect you to OBEY those things which He has already taught you, THROUGH HIS SPIRIT, and He DOES expect you to study under His leading and not remain ignorant of the many things He has waiting for you. You should find faithful men to study under, not only for your own spiritual well being and growth, but for all whom you will come in contact with.
NOTE: This “study under” does not involve study OUTSIDE of the leading of the Holy Spirit.
A LOST man can study God’s written word -- to what avail ?
This one thing will I leave you with as my advice for one whom I love.
Patience. I pray for you, that you will be strong in your faith in the Lord Jesus as this patience will work to try it fiercely at times (James 2).

I have placed a few helps (All glory to God, our Saviour, Jesus Christ) on the Sound Doctrine part of this website -

I pray for you, my brother, but now go.
Go in peace. Nonetheless. Go.

Is this a Christian way to treat a brother ?
Depends if you’re a Christian that believes Titus 3:10 is the word of God,
though it surely would not please the humanism god.
What do you believe will happen upon the King’s return ?
I can assure you that IF there were any humanists left afterwards, they would be having a fit.
God is not a man, neither will He be mocked by man.
Who alone has power to cast into hell after man’s flesh body is laid waste ?
I bring you a message of a loving God that desires you not choose this path,
but I also bring a message of a Just God whom will bring Just measure to the disobedient.
I do not obey Him because I fear His wrath, for I am not under it.
I obey Him because of the love He has shown me – not the least of which was to give His own Son for me.

In sincere hope that all may come to the full knowledge of the truth, Eric %^)

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